Why Your Empire Sucks

Fiction Portal EVE Lore Discussion
82

I had friends tell me to ignore your post, Diana, but I’ve always believed in you and your good intentions.

  1. http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Slavery#Gallente_Federation
    http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=History_of_the_ethnic_Gallente#War_with_Morthane

“Slavery is outlawed in the Federation and is considered one of the worst crimes that can be committed… Slavery was practiced deep in the past of Gallente Prime. Various pre-Federation nations had histories that included enslaving others. However, slavery was first outlawed during the Garoun Empire and since then, it has been outlawed in virtually all Gallente societies. When the Federation was founded in 23121 AD[53], the illegality of slavery was explicitly stated in the Federation’s constitution.”

These are the sources about the extent of slavery. I admit that “very little” is a relative term, especially compared to say, the Empire, but according to this, the ethnic Gallente abandoned slavery around 21656 AD. The lore only explicitly states the Morthane Empire practiced it, and this offence was so egregious it sparked a war (among other reasons.) I won’t address human trafficking because it is illegal and therefore would require a separate essay to fully go into detail about.

My career is in combating human trafficking. I really couldn’t get away with a single sentence or two.

  1. I think Veik does a good job discussing this, but I want to say that I entirely support her post and I’ve read those sources myself. I think it’s easy to overlook even today in New Eden the blending that remains culturally between the two. Gallente Federation lore pages aren’t so shy about it, alternatively offering laconic amusement of how the Caldari overlook it, then lambasting the Cultural Deliverance Society for its role in creating the problem to begin with.

http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Culture_of_the_ethnic_Gallente

“The non-politicized and individual-focused nature of ethnic Gallente culture has resulted in its ability to influence the cultures of other empires (with the notable exclusion of the Amarr). For example, large portions of contemporary State culture, be it entertainment or fashion, is simply an extension of what both civilizations shared in Luminaire centuries ago, albeit in a notable Caldari flavor and style.”

“For men, the modern day ‘business suit’ has its origins amongst the Garoun nations during Gallente Prime’s late Industrial Age, tracing back to tri-corner hats and tailcoats worn by the nobility and gentry. Said suit originally involved a blazer, tie and felt hat for males (amongst other things), before it was adopted by several other cultures after first contact, most notably the Caldari.”

"The Gallente orchestra format has been adopted by other cultures while using their own unique styles of composition, such as the Caldari not long after first contact, and later the Jin-Mei. In the modern era, there has been a lot of cultural exchange between Luminaire and Amarr composers and musicians. "

http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Impetus

" It took a few years, but eventually the Caldari researchers discovered Impetus’s original card games and reignited the fad among themselves. In somewhat of a shock to Impetus, they found many adult Caldari purchased the game, latching on to the competitive aspects of their games and delving deeply into their strategies and mechanics. Impetus had a fresh new audience, one with plenty of income to dispose of."

On and on. Like it or not, a large amount of Caldari lore is on Federation lore pages. One would be amiss to ignore that lore.

Moreover, the paper is very distinctly not centred around Caldari and ethnic Gallente relations and history. People have already talked about that. They’ve talked about it to death. It comes up in the IGS every day. I don’t care to add another voice to that argument when everything that can be said on the matter already has been said.

  1. This might just be a matter of a language barrier, but I think it’s fairly clear I was outlining the shortcomings of post-racialism. I voiced no criticisms of race as a social construct, as it’s outside of the thesis of the document. If the Federation doesn’t have or recognise race, it would be weird to waste valuable page space discussing the pros and cons of it. The document also neglected to discuss crime in detail. This was by design.

  2. http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation

Whether you like it or not, the Mannar are part of the Federation: 10-15%, in spite of their now barren homeworld. As the Intaki are 20%, the Jin-Mei are 5%, and the Minmatar are 30%. These peoples are the Federation. Their cultures, forms of governance, and indeed political ideologies are a consequence of, if not directly a product of, Federal governance. Their individual shortcomings can be directly attributed to shortcomings of the Federation; after all, other powers that be would not necessarily tolerate such excesses.

In the document, I largely wanted to focus on the unambiguous, factual shortcomings, devoid of as much subjectivity as I could manage. You’ll find that most warzone atrocities done in the name of “security” are rife with “but your empire does this” and “your empire does that!” and “all empires do this!” That doesn’t make a good thesis. I understand that’s largely where your interest lies in Gallente Federation lore, but it wasn’t in the scope of my writing efforts.

I also didn’t want to focus too keenly on any single race/identity/culture, because it’s impossible to discuss the shortcomings of every Federation member-race/identity/culture. We simply don’t know all of them. The lore in places implies there’s thousands. The document is already four pages before citations. I was hoping people might actually read it, and I don’t have the time to compose a book. So I hoped that I could give an overview that would succinctly summarise the negative consequences of culturally relativistic policy. It’s a hard line to walk, even outside of the already wobbly in-universe lore - to Western Europe, the death penalty is a human rights violation, but in the United States, it’s often revered, so to say that the Federation both allows and uses the death penalty would draw argument as to whether that’s bad or good. In place of a point-by-point argument, I can only hope illuminating the kinds of things that are possible within Federation borders, legally, will allow a reader to imagine the rest and fill in their own perspectives as needed.

I only focused on the ethnic Gallente shortcomings as much as I did because, until recent years, the ethnic Gallente were the main shapers of legislation and political power in the Federation, so their particular shortcomings are the explanation for the larger failures of the Federation in several instances. Not ALL of them, mind, but a number of them. The most well known, perhaps.

I started my essay the way I did because I wanted to show why misconceptions exist in the larger cluster about the Gallente Federation, that they are misconceptions, and that they happen as a direct result of Federation shortcomings - just not the ones an outside observer would have guessed. The lore suggests that the Federation is unique in its culturally relativistic, post-racial practices, so that’s what I wrote my paper about. I wanted to focus on the shortcomings which were unique to the Federation in particular, not the ones that were arguably shared by every major power in the cluster. Wartime abuses, crime, and questionable human rights decisions are, regrettably, not unique to the Federation, and therefore a waste of space for the purposes of Jin-taan’s request.

The paper’s already 4 pages long. If you wanted me to cover everything you personally think is important, too, Diana, it would be over 200 pages and I’d be looking for a publishing deal. It was difficult to limit the scope enough to just this to begin with.

And yeah, it is written with a mind more towards an internal perspective. Outside of the document, I think it is valuable to judge any government or organisation by its values and ideals; I believe that the premise of a government can be summarised by what it should look like, if everything and everyone worked as intended, and stayed as true to their professed core as possible. In this, the Caldari and the citizens of the Federation can claim common ground. They’re quite honest about what they care about and what they don’t care about.

When post-racialism and cultural relativism works as the ethnic Gallente intended, the results can be so bad that even professed Federal patriots acknowledge them. The shortcomings the document focuses on, I hope, are shortcomings that people both inside the Federation and outside the Federation can agree are pretty bad, even if they might not be, as you suggest, the worst the Federation has to offer.

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83

“Non-entities inhabit fringe communities outside of corporate-controlled territory within Caldari space. As rural areas on planets tend to be void of any corporate presence outside of automated facilities, non-entity communities can be found here. The Guristas frequently use these locations as a staging area for organized crime or military operations against the State. In other cases, entire worlds are inhabited by these non-entities. Because Caldari authorities do not consider non-entities to have any rights or protections, they will displace or otherwise eradicate communities deemed to be a threat to the order. Some of the Practical-leaning corporations may employ non-entities on a very minute wage in industries that are illegal or otherwise questionable.”

“Like with every interstellar empire in New Eden, there are numerous minor races and civilizations that exist in Caldari borders. Unless they choose to enter a client agreement with a State megacorporation, which very few do, these groups are treated as non-entities and are not accounted for in the system. They have no rights or protections, meaning they are frequently displaced or otherwise removed should a megacorporation require it. As the Caldari code of honor typically only applies to fellow Caldari, these incidents are not regarded as an ethical consideration in the State. The utilitarian outlook of the Caldari megacorporations means that they will not sacrifice majority gain for the rights of an obscure non-Caldari minority.
Because Caldari authorities do not record these groups in any medium, their treatment at the hands of megacorporations is relatively unknown, though Gallente journalists do strive to uncover what occurs in these areas. Atrocity and apathy towards indigenous communities in State territory seem to exist in equal measure, with no clear indication as to which is more frequent.”

eradicate

http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State#Indigenous_races
http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State#Non-entity

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84

With the Caldari State, another thing you could talk about is how competitive life is for the average person.

From the Eve: Source book, it says that from an early age, competition is promoted and everything is graded on a curve. Throughout their life, Caldari are expected to compete for everything, from getting into the best schools to getting the best jobs and the promotions within the jobs.

“_In the non-entity section of demographics of the Caldari state, a lot of the previously mentioned “non-entities” end up there not because they’re slackers but because of how competitive life in the State is. _
Many critics of the State feel that the treatment of the non-entity caste is not justified at all. It is very common in the State for citizens to give it their all and fail nonetheless, or are punished by a scaled grading system as a result of the outstanding performance of just a few exceptional individuals. In addition, trends show that firstborn children are far less likely to fail than their siblings, while individuals born with physical or mental debilitations are traditionally abandoned in non-entity communities.”

Under the Economic section of that article, it also states that “depression and suicide rates are noticeably higher in Caldari territories than anywhere else, attributed to the pressures of State society”.

http://web.archive.org/web/20160225235209/https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State

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85

You gave well argumented answer and displayed the knowledge of the material you were referencing too, thank you. You should be proud with it ,and don’t let anyone stop you from making your point.

I can only wish you ditch so-called “friends” who are trying to stunt your growth, and I hope to see you more often in roleplaying community, many of us will be delighted to see you around!

Returning back to the Federation, Gallente lore is not my specialization, but I still believe that it is important to bring at least these references to the discussion:

  1. EVE Universe

  2. EVE Universe

  3. A piece of lore from L4 Caldari Epic Mission Arc “Penumbra”.
    One of the minor focal points of the story is the institutional violation of human rights in the Federation, making their pow camps look no better than nazi concentration camps during WWII. If you as a Caldari will be unlucky to find yourself in one of these, expect being malnourished, raped and beaten by your gallente jailmasters. Oh, and if someone else will try to escape, you will most likely will be just blown up with the rest of the complex.

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86

Do you have some place separate from the forums one can read what you’ve written for the different factions?

87

Well, the purpose of it was to make a video (as that reaches a wider audience), and I’ve only done Minmatar currently. Am working on getting things together for the Amarr currently but have another video planned first :slight_smile:

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88

Cant wait lol. I also hoped that u will also explore on Amarr Mandate and Khanid rather than combining them into Amarr alone as those 3 had tons of different culture deep there.

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89

Bump for hope for moar Amarr info lol.:slight_smile:

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Far as I understand the Amarr (and to start the ball rolling), the first problem is that it’s a feudal fiefdom with all its usual problems. You know, all that Holders owning the lands/planets, leashing them out for income, being able to set tax and rent to whatever they damn well please with little oversight because they are the upper class (twits).

Then there’s that whole cutthroat business between Holders with their entire families being dragged into their schemes for more political power and to one-up that other Holder who owns the neighbouring estate (comprising of planets to star systems).

Due to how the power is distributed (Holders and up getting all the power), there’s naturally a high inertia against any kind of changes. Some of the younger Holders or Holder heirs/descendants aren’t quite happy with this (even more so since they will have to wait centuries to get any inheritance. Holders, thanks to medical technology, can live very absurdly long lives) and end up running off to join the Sani Sabik.

Then we get the whole religion legitimising all of this business.

Oh, and slavery. And the part where some Holders (especially Tash Murkon) deciding that just chaining the slaves isn’t good enough and resorting to technologically assisted mind control (Transcranial Microcontroller chips, abbreviated into TCMC). Then there’s also slave control by bioengineered virus and drugs (Vitoxin method). Also, traditionally, the Amarr Empire relies on conquest to gain more slave stocks. However, since the conquering days were over, they had resorted to black market trade and other rather unsavoury methods (slave breeding farms, for example) to maintain the number of slaves they have (especially since some of these slaves had to be released as citizens as per the instructions of their Scriptures).

Samira covered more of these with much more details.

The Ammatar Mandate, as it is currently, might as well be Amarr proper, now that a Heir family has taken over the running of this particular estate.

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91

Ooo… thanks for another informative info. So, with how now Amarr empire is not allowed to attack other faction to refill their slave quota, they end up needing to make those slaves reproduce like rabbit so that the Empire would receive even more slave to be used for the empire lifeline.(Economy, Social, and Infrastructure building.)

Is there are any reason on why Amarr would not attack any other Empire recently? I mean, sure Federation and Republic probably can muster some strength to hold them on bay, but Amarr alone with all its size and number should be able to take down Republic swiftly if they actually wanted to do that. Is there any reason with why Amarr stopping their invasion like at all till now?

92

Because they couldn’t launch any further invasions without taking on heavy losses anymore.

When they encountered the Gallente Federation, they encountered another nation with a powerful enough Navy to rival their own. Thus, the Amarr Empire decided that invading the Gallente Federation will be ruinous.

So they turned towards the Jovian Empire and suffered a heavy blow in the Battle of Vak’Atioth.

THEN the Minmatar Rebellion happened.

By the time the dust had settled, the Amarr Empire was too weakened and drained to continue their conquering ways. THEN CONCORD was established and solidified the borders and slapped the Amarr Empire with all these interstellar laws prohibiting invasions. CONCORD was also supported by the Jovian Empire and three other nations as well. Provoking their ire with an invasion will result in all four dogpiling on them. So they stopped.

If you do not count that one time Kor Azor sent his fleet to attack the Federation and got them sent back to him in scrap metal. There’s alot of politicking involved for the Amarr Empire to wash their hands off the whole business and put the blame solely on Kor Azor.

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93

While i do know that Concord seems to had place a real border which render the Empire being unable to invade, isn’t Caldari is more or less allied with the Empire? it is more or less 2 v 2 match right? so, Amarr should not be on a 1v3 position. At worst, it is only 1v2 and Amarr size also dwarf the combination of Republic and Federation.

Also, saying that Concord being that powerful seems kinda premature right? Considering how they get destroyed by the Elder Fleet in the recent big war. If Amarr really put some weight on its invasion, i don’t see Republic survive there.

94

The Caldari State has a mutual defense pact with the Amarr Empire solely to make up for their numerical disadvantage against the Federal Navy. If the Amarr starts doing anything funny like, say, declaring a Reclaiming and then carry it out, the Republic and the Federation will counter-attack and the Caldari State will follow suit.

The Caldari State does not like slavery.

The State and the Empire aren’t exactly friends. More ‘allies of convenience’.

By the way, the Elder Fleet being able to break CONCORD HQ was less due to CONCORD being weak and more because CONCORD underestimated the Elder Fleet and didn’t bother to consolidate defences to deal with the possible attack. You must also note that it took only one day for CONCORD to recover from the attack and reestablish communications with all CONCORD holdings, effectively halting the One-Day War and the Elder War. The Elder War was also planned around the assumption that wrecking CONCORD HQ will only open up a 24 hour period for them to achieve their objectives of rescuing the Starkmanir and as many slaves as they can get their hands on, because they know that this is exactly how long it’s going to take before CONCORD starts flexing their full military might and re-enforce the status quo.

Now consider that the size of High Sec in the New Eden Cluster and appreciate just how much power CONCORD has but did not use effectively.

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95

Ahh i see. If that is the case, no wonder the Empire as big as it is, it won’t be able to do anything against them as 1v3 is another case as it is more or less a half world vs another half. It is going to be a very dangerous war to wage.

Concord being that powerful is really crazy. From what we know, all their tech comes from Jovian which is makes them so powerful even if they are much smaller. On that aspect, is Drifters also Jovian? They seem to use the same type of ships that Concord uses? Who knows if they are actually some pirates who had stole Concords ships lol.

96

The Jovian Empire as it was before was the Third Jovian Empire. The Drifters split from the main Jovian polity somewhere around the Second or the First Jovian Empire and had become their own entities.

The ‘pirate’ CONCORD ships are distributed to capsuleers by CONCORD with much of their ubertech stripped out. These are stripped down versions.

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97

Wait. There is 2 types of Jovian Empire now? The Third and the Older Jovian Empire?

From what i know, the recent Jovian Empire is very exclusive right? They destroyed their warp gate which render none of us on New Eden to able to communicate with them anymore at all. If the Drifters is like the old dog of the Jove Empire, won’t that make them some kinda of pirates? And it is also kinda strange seeing how Drifters seems to target Empire more. Does Empire did anything to make those drifters angry lol.

98

The Jovian history is marked by three rises and three collapses. The First Empire collapsed, and a Second took its place. The Second then collapsed and was replaced with a Third, which collapsed in the current era and never rose again.

As it currently stands, the Third Jovian Empire, and the main Jovian polity, in general, are extinct.

During the previous collapses, the Jovians did split and form their own political bodies. That’s where the Sleepers and the Drifters came from.

As far as we know, the Drifters and the Sleepers are related. The Amarr Empire did launch frequent incursions into Sleeper space (wormhole space) to harvest Sleeper pods to harvest their implants on an industrial scale. These implants were used to create the first generation of clone soldiers that we see in Dust 514. Second gen onwards were based on the reverse-engineered versions of these implants.

The Drifters, presumably, almost exclusively attack the Amarr Empire for this reason.

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99

Ahh no wonder lol. That Drifters hated Empire lol. No want would like being harvested for business.

Actually reading on ur part on Jovian, it seems…they are kinda dead? The first and Second Empire=Drifters+Sleepers right now. The Third Empire is kinda dead or alive as they had never been contacted like at all anymore since the last big war against Empire.

But, if thats the case, how can Concord receive all those Jove weapon? Is that because of Concord member is actually Jovian or there is some kind of conspiracy behind?

Also, Empire seems to have tons of enemies all around huh.O_O

100

The Third Jovian Empire collapsed long after they had helped to establish CONCORD. CONCORD still has all these technologies the Jovians gave them.

The empty Jovian Empire seat in the CONCORD Assembly has since been filled by the Society of Conscious Thought, whom the Jovians appointed as their heir once they are gone. Society of Conscious Thought possesses much of the knowledge base of the Jovians.

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101

O_O

Concord is the final gift for us on New Eden to make sure that no giant war is possible of happening anymore. But damn o damn, i feel for those Jovians. They had all the talent of the world and they are so screwed. I wonder if it is possible for us to see The Fourth Jovian Empire returning to New Eden space of world.:slight_smile: