Willpower/Perception Skills (T2)

It seems like this is the whole reason bonus remaps are necessary… am I missing something?

I’ve just reached the 50 day train of Jump Freighters with my cap pilot and I’m going insane trying to find some justification for making T2 skills backwards. Perc/Will makes sense since you can train a year of ship skills and make the best of it, but there’s no way to set a year of Willpower/Perception training since every T2 skill is a separate branch in specialization. There aren’t even T2 caps at all, so Jump Freighters and Transport Ships are the only ones worth having on a courier pilot. Training this with a Perc/Will distribution wastes 2 whole weeks.

Am I the only one who can’t stand this arbitrary backwards attribute system? Go ahead, get it out of your system, defend CCP with your “that’s the way it’s always been” but to me, it’s fairly simple logic:

If you want to be limited to one remap per year, the attributes you set need to be useful for a whole year of training. CCP you’re killing us OCDers…

Some people like the remaps. It makes them feel elite:

If i remap i actually lose an attribute point, so i just don’t remap lol

Where did you get an extra attribute point from?

I think it was when they changed the “base attributes” for each race, i would have ended up with 1 less total attribute point but because i haven’t remapped they haven’t had a chance to remove it :stuck_out_tongue:

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Yes and no.

If you want to train most efficiently:

  • map towards attributes that can give you a skill queue for a year
  • use bonus remaps after you’ve mapped to certain attributes that cannot give you a year-long skill queue
  • use skill injectors on skills that you don’t have the attributes for right now

Yes, you may have to use your bonus remaps to train into skills that don’t have often used attributes. Or you could use skill injectors for them, as you get a lot of days of training time out of skill injectors that way compared to injecting skills that you do have the attributes for.

What else would you use the bonus remaps for?

But no, bonus remaps aren’t necessary for those off-attribute skills. You could inject them all, or don’t bother training on maximum speed. I like being efficient while training, so I’m using the first 3 guidelines.

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I’m having a little difficulty trying to understand what you’re saying. But…

Bonus remaps can be useful for highly specialized characters as it allows them to remap for a list of skills that don’t require a year’s worth of training, and then remap to something else when ready.

However, more general characters will often have no problem finding years worth of skills to train, depending on the remap.

You don’t have to use perfect remaps; sometimes good enough remaps are good enough. Especially if you want more freedom to change course. For example, 27 perception and 21 willpower will allow you to train T1 ship skills at 37.5 SP/min, but only train T2 ship skills at 34.5 SP/min. Alternatively, you could remap 24 Per and 24 Will, and then train both at 36 SP/min. It’s not the absolute best training rate, but it’s pretty close, and you don’t have to worry about suboptimal training rates if your plans change. Another example is the 27 Perception, 21 Int remap. On average, you won’t get as good of a training rate as previously mentioned remaps, but you get a decent bump, and it will also give you the freedom to train things like Int+Mem based support skills without absolutely tanking your SP/min.

Anyway, I don’t think that the system is arbitrary or backwards. It is, perhaps, unnecessarily complex. But that complexity also gives players like me an advantage over those who put the bare minimum effort into their attributes.

Oh, and if you want to get the best possible training rate, you should make a skill plan in Evemon, and figure out the optimal order, remap points, and attributes for each remap. I also made a video series on all things SP related. You might want to check it out.

Let me put it super simply…

As far as I can tell the only way remap to willpower/perception and train optimally for the whole year you are stuck with the attributes is to train every T2 ship skill in a row: interceptors, transport ships, black ops, command ships, exhumers, flag cruisers, expedition frigates, etc.

It is insane to assume that any EVE player is even going to consider training one character into all the T2s let alone that they might have one with all the pre-requisite ship skills ready to go at once.

Do you mean perception/willpower? Because that same map works for missile and gunnery skills, too.

I do not… it would be at least somewhat reasonable if gunnery was perception heavy and missiles were willpower heavy or something, but as it stands, the only thing you can do with willpower primary attributes is T2 hulls… and for some of them, like jump freighters, it the bad attributes mean a difference of over a week of training.

The best thing they could do would be to simplify the whole mechanism so that even if you had 99 different options, at least you could wake up knowing your character wasn’t wasting months of its lifetime training at a disadvantage.

You lost me. All spaceship command skills are perception/willpower based.

Oh…wait…I never realized that! You are right!

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Most of us just set our attribs for ship skills and assume it’s all gravy…

Then we drag a skill down and see “48 days…”

Okay, I see what you’re getting at, but there’s no one saying you have to do it that way. That being said, doing it that way can be benificial for other training plans. For example, I set this character to 27 Int, 21 Memory early on, and then spent like 3 years maxing out all the industry and science skills.

For other characters, I focused on getting all their support skills up to snuff early, then switched to 24 perception and 24 willpower remaps. Since then, I have concentrated on training T1 ships, T2 ships, weapons, and weapon support skills. I used skill injectors (up to 80mil SP) and any bonus SP to train things that I preferred to never remap for (such as fleet support skills). In fact, one of my characters has damn near maxed out all subcap spaceship command skills and all subcap weapon skills (save for the rank V of most weapon spec skills). It looks like I’m about 6 months away. After that, I’ll probably remap to Int Mem in order to max out various support skills that I still haven’t finished (like all the ewar, targeting, and rigging skills), and then switch to training caps on that toon -starting with Int and mem based capital support skills.

But I digress. Long story short, the system will allow you to train significantly faster than your peers if you are willing to do some long term planning and/or burn through your bonus remaps. And if you don’t want to commit to such long term plans, you can roll with more flexible remaps. They might not offer the absolute best training rates, but they’re better than the default, and won’t punish you for changing your mind or not planning out every skill from the get go.

It’s one thing to say player’s choice, give and take.

It’s another when you spend $15 per training month per character to play a video game. Some “genius” dev’s hair-brained idea of a game mechanic means your give and take choice is now a straight “should I throw $5 in the toilet just to fly this or that type of ship this year rather than next year.”

So put the attributes mixed between per/wil and you train both fairly fast.

Well, you definitely have a different perspective on it than I do. I’m not going to say that you’re wrong, but let me tell you how I look at it. My understanding of skill training mechanics, and the effort I have put into skill training, has allowed me to train significantly faster than my peers. This, in turn, has given me an advantage over them. For example, I started playing just over 5 years ago (like 5 years and 14 days), yet my top character already has 155 mil SP, and I have 3 more with about 125mil.

Now, this chart was from right before injectors were introduced, and the player base has had about 4 extra years to skill up, but it does provide the best frame of reference that I have access to. Anyway, based upon this chart, my top character (5 years old) has about the same amount of SP as a 10 year character, and has made it to the top 3% of characters. Moreover I have 3 more toons that have about the same amount of SP as 8 year old characters. I was able to pull so far ahead of my peers because I used optimal training strats - strats which included using remaps and training plans. If the system allowed everyone to train at the exact same rate, it would remove one the tools younger players have for catching up to the vets, which would increase the value of being subbed for longer. In other words, it would give an advantage to older players, regardless of whether they would have used optimal strats or not.

Some people have suggested that we completely get rid of remaps (ostensibly because some newbros are accidentally bricking their characters), and just have everyone train at the same rate. I’m not a fan. It lowers the skill ceiling, and gives an advantage to older players at the expense of those who would put the effort into using optimal strats. Personally, I like that the system is proportionately rewarding players based on knowledge and effort. I like how you can chose between instant gratification (i.e. no effort, no planning, training freedom) and long term reward (maximize SP gains). And I like how it’s another tool that has helped me to catch up to older players and gain an advantage over my peers.

Anyway, sorry for the walls of text I’ve been throwing at you.


No, you are not the only one. I just don’t have the right arguments to make about it, but it has rubbed me the wrong way for years. I dislike having to plan things months in advance, especially in a game that changes so often. Shipwreck Jones makes a beautiful argument here about catching up to older players. I can’t beat that argumentation :laughing:


He has a point about long term planning, but still hasn’t presented his strategy to prove it’s any better than yours or mine.

Anybody… show me a 12 month T2 (i.e. Willpower dominant) skill queue that makes any sense on one character.

This really isn’t a game issue, it’s a people issue.

We’re conditioned to try and squeeze every ounce of performance out of … well, everything. So when we encounter a situation that requires us to follow a suboptimal path (like the Will/Per skill queue) it bumps up against that conditioning and the result in people who cannot just “let it go” is frustration, at a minimum.

It’s just people being people. People gotta people man.

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Saying it makes sense is subjective. What “makes sense” to you may not make sense to me, and vice versa.