We dont know yet how many people will become problem gamblers later in life, first trying HyperBet Relay. Or how many people will lose thousands of $ because of it.
If we will create enough fuss about it, some people may become more aware and they will avoid it.
The thing is, CCP will not do that, because its conflict of interest for them. They even tried to present it as a market update, not Lottery.
Despicably confusing wording in the dev blog being indicative of their position.
And I expected better of you. You sound overly emotional about this.
It shows risk seeking. Yes, the expected payoff over a large number of trials is about the same in both cases, but the point is that the risk seeker always picks the gamble. This would be true if we changed the payoffs. The point is that the gamble itself influences the risk seekers behavior.
Sure, fine. In this case, the risk seeker would take the bet. For him the mere act of taking a risk is part of the benefit. For the rest of us we might play for a little bit then walk off. We might be up a few bucks, break even or be down a few bucks.
I donât see how this is not consistent with risk seeking behavior.
Further, it is not at all clear that this is how the raffles will work. It isnât going to be like roulette or craps where the house will set the odds in its favor as a sure thing. That is suppose there is an item and it is worth 1 billion ISK on the market. The player could set up the raffle with 100 hypernodes at a price of 20 million each. Now heâll get 2 billion. But competition could force that price down. Yes things like mutated modules could make such competition harder. However, at the same time the notion of a repeated gamble for that item is also harder as well. It isnât going to be like sitting at a slick slot machine with all the bells and whistles and noise and excitement.
Not if one is doing it for fun. Lots of people engage in gambling for fun. The vast majority gamble responsibly. They do it for a bit of excitement and that is it.
This is not irrational if the âfun and excitementâ of playing a few games offsets the potential losses.
I disagree this is irrational. The person in this case is getting a thrill that exceeds the loss. It isnât good in that it means the person puts himself and those who depend on him in a worse financial situation, but what is going on is pretty well understood. It isnât sensible or âwiseâ but to call it irrational even when we can predict it is strange.
Premise, not promise. You are sneaking in the point you are trying to prove/demonstrate, so is @Merin_Ryskin.
The premise is that this is going to create gambling addicts, especially in children, just like with casinos. I am not so sure. Playing with real life money is likely to be much more thrilling than playing with what amounts to monopoly money or playing a gambling game with fake money on your computer. Also, the environment is very different than say what many think of as a gambling environment. Even the gaming itself is going to be different. With electronic gambling such as slot machines one can argue there are lots of shenanigans some that are very deceptive, but often give a false impression. I donât see that going on here.
Well at least we are getting some empirics hereâŚ
Okay, so 3% and 1.5% of EVE O players are under 18, that means .045% of eve players or assuming 500,000 players, 2,222âŚif that. Again, this isnât like walking into a casino, there isnât going to be things like the deceptive ânear missâ or âunbalanced wheelsâ one can find at a casino slot machine.
Right how many people go on from playing lotteries to being gambling addicts? If this were like walking into a Vegas casino and sitting down at a slot machineâŚyouâd have a better argument. Instead you are using some dubious statistics here.
YesâŚ
How about looking at what pretty much every 1st world nation does regarding kids and vices before you continue with your moronic trolling.
Uh, no, it would not be true if you changed the payouts. Youâre trying to make a point by using an unrealistic example where the âgambleâ has a positive expected value. That isnât risky at all, and even the most cautious investor would take that âbetâ 100% of the time and as many times as possible.
The point with gambling addiction is that they arenât making a rational choice. The gambling activity has a negative expected value and they keep doing it anyway, even when they are clearly hurting themselves in the process.
I donât see how this is not consistent with risk seeking behavior.
Because itâs not just about enjoying risk! Gambling addiction is about addiction, continuing the behavior even when it becomes harmful. The person who has fun with the risky activity and then walks away before they suffer any real harm is not an addict. It only becomes addiction when you start talking about compulsive behavior, being unable to voluntarily walk away from âjust one more gameâ.
It isnât going to be like roulette or craps where the house will set the odds in its favor as a sure thing.
Of course it will be. If the lottery has a positive expected value for the players then nobody is going to pay cash to start that lottery. The only lotteries that will exist will, by definition, have negative expected value for the players.
It isnât going to be like sitting at a slick slot machine with all the bells and whistles and noise and excitement.
Clearly you missed the part of the article where CCP proudly said âlook at all of the bells and whistles and noise and excitement weâve added to make this entertainingâ. Or youâre dishonestly ignoring it because it suits your goals.
I disagree this is irrational. The person in this case is getting a thrill that exceeds the loss. It isnât good in that it means the person puts himself and those who depend on him in a worse financial situation, but what is going on is pretty well understood. It isnât sensible or âwiseâ but to call it irrational even when we can predict it is strange.
Sorry, but this is utter nonsense. Even if you want to accept a moral system where getting divorced and becoming homeless is a perfectly rational decision to make the simple fact here is that addicts arenât doing this. They arenât consciously weighing the pros and cons of a decision and concluding that the game is more fun than their marriage, theyâre suffering from compulsive behavior and most of the time arenât even happy about it. They shamefully hide their addiction and try to pretend that they donât have a problem, they live deep in denial about how bad things are, and most of their gambling is just a miserable slog briefly interrupted by a momentary thrill of a win.
In short, youâre looking at a homeless heroin addict on the street begging for money for the next hit and saying âlook at that perfectly rational choiceâ.
It sure would be true. The point of risk seeking is that the risk itself is of value. So changing the payouts would still result in the same outcomes. The risk averse person would pick the sure thing, the risk seeker would pick the gamble.
But it is still consistent with risk seeking. The preferences of the risk seeker are the problem.
No, it wonât. Look at some of the lawsuits around this issue. It isnât just that there are people who are risk seekers, but that the companies making many of these machines and the casinos do things to take advantage of that. I donât see any of that here. Will there be a deceptive ânear missâ display like in electronic slot machines that could induce a player to keep playing? I donât see how. How frequent are these raffles going to be? Can one just do one after another expecting the same payout for the same item? I doubt that too.
Oh, and after just playing it on Singularity, yeah boring compared to Vegas.
Sigh. Youâre missing the point entirely. You can not talk about risk seeking in the context of two alternatives that both have the same positive expected value and zero potential harm. And changing the payouts absolutely does change the conclusion, this is basic game theory.
The preferences of the risk seeker are the problem.
Again, it isnât a rational preference. Compulsive behavior is not a preference, itâs a mental illness. Itâs like saying âheroin is a rational preferenceâ and pretending that addiction has nothing to do with chemical interactions and an irrational need for the substance.
How frequent are these raffles going to be?
As often as the gambling addicts will let them happen by buying tickets. They are 100% player run and when a lottery is guaranteed profit for the person running them the only limiting factor will be how many people are buying tickets. 100% of demand will be satisfied, guaranteed.
I posted the numbers in the other thread. How many times do I have to postâŚ
There is ânear missâ sheme implemented, when the letters are uncovered, its these letters being uncovered in animation, I dont know if you have seen it. Its similar thing and design.
But the way its portrayed in the game is a hybrid look actually. The final part is taken from slot machines, it have those passing letters. Also animation is shiny and glittery, like what you would see at slot machines. And of course its still betting and gambling at core of things.
Its still conflict of interest for them and people are seeing how CCP tries to keep the nature of it obfuscated in official sources and game. To not make people go about telling everyone that EVE have gambling available for minors.
Because it will be so accessible, and links to âVIPâ raffles will be posted in local for everyone to see. The betting sites were inconvenient in comparison, set up outside of the game and you had to create account first and put your ISK into the account, removing from game.
Well, Concord use to constantly post âWANTEDâ notifications on Capsuleers for various crimes of theft, extortion and violence.
They even posted a notification about Drugs:
lol, sorry, just needed to post it.
Itâs interesting, because thereâs an open question.
Itâs not obvious, but itâs still there:
Why do people complain?
People donât actually really give a â â â â about the first two ⌠at least in general. Psychological abuse and manipulation is everywhere nowadays. Does no one remember the beginning of the âclickbaitâ era? I remember it. At some point suddenly headlines and titles got much more interesting, until Iâve realized whatâs going on.
Does no one remember FarmVille and it started a totally different breed of games?
Now this â â â â is the norm and no one bats an eye âŚ
⌠because the one who could donât react to all this stuff anymore âŚ
⌠and the one who reacts to them doesnât see them as a bad thing.
Iâm not buying the wannabe outrage. The people in korea already live this stuff. Itâs literally the norm and in their culture. The HyperNet Relay is a feature deliberately made for them and anyone thinking the timing of the release is just coincidentially coinciding with the Korean localisation is, quite frankly, a naive, stupid moron.
If people truly and deeply cared about this, theyâd not be playing video games. Theyâd be out on the streets, because being manipulated is the norm for everyone. Theyâd realise that it will only ever get worse, with our children being on the line here. They donât do that, though, because in actual, objective reality people donât give a â â â â . Complaining isnât actually opposition. Itâs complaining. Itâs meaningless words spread by a bunch of morons who put too much mass into their mostly ill informed, irrelevant opinions.
That being said âŚ
I prefer CCP milking Koreans,
because theyâre used to it and are being raised into liking it.
Thatâs a lot better than trying milking us and actually breaking the game.
The HyperNet definitely wonât do that. Itâll just push PLEX to the moon.
My honest thoughts, this feature is not for me, I am not rich nor have a impulsive desire for gambling, fine by me, it wonât be a feature directed at the majority of the community either, only the rich with huge amounts of isk to dump. A currency sink, it wonât be for everyone.
Sorry, but your understanding of the process here is limited by your need to be irrational about about a non-issue.
First, a little number work: letâs take Nanaâs article stating ~1.4% of 16-24 year olds have gambling addiction issues. Letâs bump up the EVE numbers a bit and say that 5% of all EVE players are in the âyouthâ age bracket. Letâs take @20,000 EVE players online as our baseline, which is pretty generous given the number of AFKs, bots, etc.
That puts us at roughly 1,000 âyoung playersâ at any given time, of which 14 are likely to have gambling addiction issues. And thatâs a real stretch, because raffles arenât the type of gambling that causes addiction issues.
There is no âunlimited spins at the wheelâ. There is no âthrill of taking a risk and watching the action for the payoffâ. There absolutely is no â100% guaranteed demand satisfiedâ. Thatâs all just more made-up hysteria from the freakout crew.
There are only so many types of items in EVE. Most of those items have a steady supply stream and strong selling/pricing competition. The pricing information of the raffle vs. buying the item on the market will be available. The cost of Hypernodes, directly linked to the ISK value of the raffle, will be an additional overhead cost tacked on to the normal cost of the item. Therefore, raffle-runners will not be able to compete with the sales of normal items, which do not suffer that overhead cost.
Only unique, rare, unusual items will be cost-effective to raffle. There is no infinite supply. Things like rare, discontinued skins, mutaplasmid items, maybe some officer modules or rare drops. Some players might put together complete, pre-fit ships and raffle those, I guess.
Other than that, contracts and regular markets will be a cheaper way to buy anything that isnât unusually limited in supply. And once the raffle is started, itâs a matter of looking up the offer, judging the number of tickets, deciding to buy some, and then sitting and waiting for all the other tickets to sell, and then getting some notification that âTicket AB3 won the thingâ. Hardly the thrill of the gamble, the feeling of competition, the sensory feedback that most âproblem gamblingâ situations associate with.
Hereâs a fun question for you: search the internet, ask your friends, look up the literature and send us a list of all the problem raffle addicts you can find. I bet the horror stories of lives broken are absolutely chillingâŚ
Iâve been thinking about this âŚ
⌠aaaaaaaaaaaaaand âŚ
⌠boobs should be banned.
Theyâre addictive!
Everyone likes them!
Everyone wants to touch them!
Even when theyâre really small and barely there, people still love them!
People even pay just to look at them! Just looking!
A BooBan!
Hek yeah!
Youâre making the mistake of believing CCPâs PR nonsense about this being a market and not a casino. CCP did not invest a bunch of developer time into this so that a few people could sell unique items. The intent is very much that this becomes a regular gambling feature used as much as possible to generate F2P cash shop revenue. The item itself is only relevant in that it has sufficient value to be a lottery prize.
Hardly the thrill of the gamble, the feeling of competition, the sensory feedback that most âproblem gamblingâ situations associate with.
I guess you missed the part where CCP brags about how entertaining the event will be? Or are you just ignoring it because it doesnât fit your opinion of the feature?
^ âThe definition of insanity is saying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.â 
Because i know people who encourage their kids to play eve.
The difference is that noone is gonna tell you with a straight face that you should officer fit your navy raven.
On the other hand we have CCP telling players that gambling is a fun, engaging and highly anticipated mechanic and prominently displaying it on the launcher.
Guess you should send CCP a thank-you then for introducing such a low-key mechanic to help your friends teach their kids to gamble responsibly.
