US Congressional & EU Hearings on chance drop from video games


(Brewlar Kuvakei) #1

How do you think Eve online will change in regards to sweeping regulations being proposed both in the US & EU?

Some of the changes being proposed,

All loot tables to be published alongside chance of winning for paid loot boxes or subscription games. Might be interesting to see the actual confirmed chance of drops from DED sites, officers ect. It might make some sites now more desirable than others. It would also be interesting to see the chances of such sites by sec status too.


(The Dunning Kruger) #2

CCP doesn’t (yet) sell loot boxes, so why would they change anything at all?


(Sugar Smacks) #3

With the gaming market going more and more in the loot box direction, this kind of legislation is actually needed.

Shouldn’t do anything to EvE however.


(Salt Foambreaker) #4

Minority party whine, this is DOA.


(Ralph King-Griffin) #5

Yeah might be but CCP don’t sell you any of those.


(Shallanna Yassavi) #6

If they’re smart, they’ll keep money away from stupid games of chance (lootboxes or cash shop items which change drop rates or open world drops). If they’re crazy they’ll make every RPG ever illegal because they all have some flavor of random in world drops.


(Brewlar Kuvakei) #7

I don’t think the law is going to distinguish at which point currency changes hands. I think it will say if you pay for content that has chance drops then those chances must be fair & published. I predict that a lot of CCP’s behaviour in the past is going to wash up unless they follow the new proposed laws to a super squeaky clean level.


(Eternus8lux8lucis) #8

This is an extension of the kids gambling in video games issue nothing more. No RNG details would be listed just if there were a casino like transaction that would have to be curtailed, removed or listed fully.

This is why CCP got rid of the OOG casinos like IWI recently. But in game Eve has nothing similar. The closest thing would be the Christmas present boxes but we get those given to us so it wouldnt even come close to applying.


(Remiel Pollard) #9

A lot of people seem to be making the mistake of conflating RNG with ‘gambling’. The problem with this is, by the definitions they put forth, everything becomes gambling. Waking up in the morning is gambling. Had this argument already with people on Black Desert Online, which is a game thick with RNG.

The US congress is looking at curtailing the predatory kind of gambling that’s finding its way into video games. With EVE and BDO, you pick a thing you want to buy, and you spend your money on that. You always know exactly what you’re spending your money on. With loot boxes, you’re spending your money on an unknown, a random chance. This is where the random chance becomes the problem. At the end of the day, RNG has been a staple of role playing games in general since their very inception as tabletop pen-and-paper games.

The RNG we get in games is a carry-over from that mechanic, because in these games, you aren’t playing yourself, you’re playing the role of another character, so your personal abilities are meant to be largely irrelevant, as the only skills that matter are those of the character that you are playing as. Video games make a compromise, however, between player skill and character skill, and usually find a nice little sweet spot. Some great examples of this are Fallout and Skyrim. Many games also remove a lot of player skill entirely from the equation, such as SWTOR and WoW.

Anyway, long story short, the RNG itself is not the problem. It’s the use of RNG as a mechanic of predatory monetisation. EVE doesn’t have that as far as I can tell.


(Fluffy Moe) #10

I have always seen this as a legal issue and I just do not understand why these things haven’t come to the front sooner, even before gambling style lootboxes.

In particular in some states in the US. I do not know the detailed specifics of laws in the EU, Russia, China, or other countries in general. But in the US, it is actually illegal for a minor to make a financial transaction in quite a few states, especially the most populous ones. In all actuality, any transaction made without consent of a legal guardian can be contested and has to be reversed / refunded by the seller.

So given how many kids use their parents CCs or paypal or other payment methods without the parents consent, I’m very surprised this has not gotten to some court cases yet. Many parents will for example let their kids use the payment method for game purchase or subscriptions etc. but they will not let them waste excessive money on lootboxes, which does happen.

So given that EA for example is a USA based corp, and most infamous for lootboxes, how could they have not forseen a legal conflict arising in their business strategy ? Did they seriously think it would go unnoticed forever ?


(JC Mieyli) #11

at worst ccp will have to release a chart showing drop chances for loot from rats but i dont think its likely because they dont sell loot boxes and people arent paying for a sub for the chance to acquire loot
its not like everyone is subbing for a chance at that elusive purple officer mod or something and even if they were they can just buy it from the market


(Cristl) #12

Anyone know the regulations for older pre-digital equivalents?

I remember Panini football stickers back in the seventies would feel rigged (you and your mates all have loads of spare Liverpool FC badges, but Watford’s left back has been sighted fewer times than the Loch Ness monster). I don’t have concrete, non-anecdotal evidence though. That was some time ago too.

What are the rules for Pokemon cards and those Magic thingammybob cards that kids can play with? Do they have published frequencies for the good cards and the crappy cards? Presumably there are fewer “Slonglor! Warrior Priest of the Order of the Phallus” than “Garthric, lame yeoman” cards knocking about.


(Abyss Azizora) #13

[quote=“The_Dunning_Kruger, post:2, topic:57898, full:true”]

CCP doesn’t (yet) sell loot boxes[/quote]

““YET”” They are planning to add them in less than a year I wager. They changed plex to basically be the in-game premium currency a few years back. Then they added the code for lockboxes to the game year before last. Now they have non-sold working lockbox loot in the game fully functional and are selling crap attached to paid content in the game.

The lockboxes are coming.


(Cypherous) #14

[quote=“Abyss_Azizora, post:13, topic:57898, full:true”]

The plex change was because aurum made little to no real sense as a currency, why bother having leftover currencies when you can just have it use plex instead and just readjust it, it wasn’t a change so they could add lootboxes :stuck_out_tongue:


(pris Naari) #15

I have never seen anything mentioned by CCP of plans to make “loot boxes” of any kind. The closest thing ingame are the agency reward containers , and it states on the box whats in it. and no cost to earn them.
For the DED sites , i don’t know how the RNG works, weither the loot table is by region , faction , or level.

as seen not too long ago, CCP takes in game gambling very seriously, as well as taking action against RMT.

and the chance of the US congress doing anything is nill.


(Abyss Azizora) #16

[quote=“Cypherous, post:14, topic:57898, full:true”]

I know it wasn’t a direct result of the plans to add lockbox stuff to the game, but you can’t deny consolidating the game into a single premium currency isn’t a prelude to the inevitable pay2win. Eve is one of the few mmos out there where I don’t have to try and prove that the devs are considering adding pay2win to the game, because the devs themselves admitted to it when one of the disgruntled employees leaked the internal memo outlining possible pay2win elements (gold ammo) to the game a few years back.

Did the loss of 1/3 of the entire playerbase cause them to take a step back from it? Of course. Did it mean they scrapped the plans? Of course not. They just changed the methods and speed at which it’s being added. The old saying is that you don’t toss a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will hop out. You place it in luke warm water and slowly raise the temperature till it boils. That’s how smart companies do pay2win.


(Agondray) #17

that’s what they claim but we really know it was to curbstomp some RMT, the online gambling deal was just the chance to strike, other wise they have to get the gambling scams too.


(Eternus8lux8lucis) #18

Well no it wasnt just the RMT issue it was that there was another lawsuit pending against another game company for online underage gambling so imo it was to kill two birds with one stone.


(Brewlar Kuvakei) #19

Yup, I contacted the gambling commission way back in regards to CCP’s behaviour. So I like to think I had a little to do with the casino’s downfall which makes me feel fuzzy all over. Btw CCP resisted at every step of the way, they did not act on their own morals only when it was clear that their behaviour was garnering attention from the authorities, angering the player base & was clearly immoral.

I hope CCP gets stung hard in these new changes. Btw the T2BPO was a drop box lottery, maybe we’ll finally get to the workings of that rigged ■■■■■■■■ if these laws force CCP to do so.


(Eternus8lux8lucis) #20

No it wasnt. You gained standing with an agent in game, then got the skills necessary to use that agent again in game, then you accrued RP from said agent and randomly the agent would notify you of a potential breakthrough which you could select or let keep accruing more RP for a potentially better BPO.

Not one lick of this was gambling with real money paid to CCP for a specific dice roll with odds only known to CCP. All of this was normal gameplay to seed BPOs, sure T20 sort of blurred the lines with the original scandal because of insider information, yet other than this it was all within normal gameplay.

The issue at hand isnt dice rolls, RNG or chance but that someone is paying REAL money for “unknown odds” games of chance. This is what loot boxes are. Everything we have in game can only be bought in game. In fact game time, aka PLEX, is the only thing we have to pay CCP for everything else you can mine, manufacture, rat, explore or gain through in game methods.

I have zero idea why people still think that RNG dice rolls are effectively gambling or how these laws being pushed in the real world because of underaged kids spending real money and getting hooked on gambling like they were told in the last hundred years to get hooked on smoking cigarettes by the tobacco companies are somehow the same thing.:roll_eyes: