Wow, when did EVE become pay-to-win?

[Manweru_Cemenotar]

@Destiny_Corrupted

I would say that Omega status is outside of any “P2W” considerations, because it’s a requirement of the game. You simply can’t play without it, just like you can’t play without a sub in WoW (last time I checked, you got level-capped and couldn’t engage in any current tier content). CCP just does a very bad job of conveying the fact that Alpha status is essentially a trial version of the game.

That was my way of thinking when alpha state was being introduced, but a collegue of mine have pointed out one issue with this line of thinking - usually your full account does not revert to trial when your sub runs out. You named WoW as an example - last time I checked over there even if you started with a free trial, if you started paying sub and sub ran out, you ceased to have access to the game all together instead of reverting to trial version.

But then again even if You did drag omega state into the discussion in there, while it would be the best argument one complaining about p2w could ever have in eve - it does not hold water to the classical definition of p2w.

[Gergoran_Moussou]

@Manweru_Cemenotar

last time I checked over there even if you started with a free trial, if you started paying sub and sub ran out, you ceased to have access to the game all together instead of reverting to trial version.

That has been incorrect for years.

[Manweru_Cemenotar]

are You sure we are talking same WoW in here?

[Cypherous]

@Destiny_Corrupted

@Xeux

It sounds like something from the very early days, where only Minmatar could fly Minmatar ships. Ancient history - he might as well complain about sec status only going up to 5 now, instead of 10.
https://images.wisconsinhistory.org/700011270118/1127002357-l.jpg

I thought that was something that didn’t even make it past the beta? My mind can’t even remember that far back - I was like 2 years old back then.

Well it wasn’t a thing back in 2004 when i started so i assume it didn’t make it out of the beta lol

[Zoiie]

Spaceballs - We're at now-now.

[Rhinanna]

That kinda falls over when to be competitive you need lots of caps.

Which needs lots of skills and money.

So an alliance which can now buy BOTH, can immediately rocket themselves
into a position of major power just through IRL cash.

Last time this happened I know about, you couldn’t buy skills instantly so, I can’t
remember the exact faction name but some Russian rich guy bought a whole fleet
of cap ships with IRL money. Now they can not only buy the ships but instantly max
skill them as well, which was one of the major reasons they got defeated last time.

And yes, credit card warriors likely die easier than experienced pilots… but you are
trying to say having multiple titans they wouldn’t otherwise of had, isn’t a massive advantage?

And if they give those ships to experienced pilots… well

[Xeux]

Cool story. So can I pay CCP so that I can skip the vulnerability window on a citadel? Can I pay something so I can skip the system that is camped? Can I use RL money to prevent wormholes from spawning in my J-Space system?

Since Eve is open-ended, you set your own goals. There used to be a few guys that had the highest skillpoint totals in the game - they were always trying to maximize their training speed, by any means possible, to stay in the race for top-ten. Obviously, those guys have moved on since skill injectors came along.

So, if some parts of Eve are pay-to-win and you don’t like that, you should find another area of Eve that isn’t so easy to buy your way into.

[Rhinanna]

either not available to players through normal gameplay

Did you DELIBERATELY cut the end of that quote off?

The bit where it says, either not available to players through normal gameplay or requires an unreasonable amount or time/effort to acquire

Ya kinda gave the game away when the quote says ‘EITHER’ and then only gives one option!

I think the fact that it takes literally multiple years to train up to fly a titan counts under the 2nd part which you excluded…

Edit: Typo

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Rhinanna

I think the fact that it takes literally multiple years to train up to fly a titan counts under the 2nd part which you excluded…

He addressed my entire quote…

Anyway, since I was the one being quoted, I’ll ask you: how exactly do you plan on “winning” the game with a titan? Locking something away behind a cash-walled unreasonable amount of effort can be considered “P2W” if the thing is actually useful, and not just a massive liability.

[Rhinanna]

Or play a better game that
1> Doesn’t require multiple paid accounts to play at any sort of high level.
2> Then tries to grab even more of your cash.
3> Hasn’t been properly updated since 2010 since CCP decided to waste all the money from eve on DUST and various other failures.

[Xeux]

Meditation costs nothing.

[Rhinanna]

Ah apologises to him them, it was you that misquoted the definition of P2W.

My mistake, got harassed by work when I was writing the post so was a little distracted.

Also did you look at your own quote. ‘gain an advantage’. Are you saying having access to
all the best ships in the game instantly isn’t an advantage? Been able to replace any losses
during war easily…

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Rhinanna

Are you saying having access to all the best ships in the game instantly isn’t an advantage?

Not an advantage. It gives you the benefit of not having to wait as long, but it’s not an advantage in the practical sense, since no matter what happens, if you keep playing the game, you will have those things anyway.

To expound on this concept: the game could be considered “P2W” in this regard only if you look at every match-up between players in isolation. A new player who’s playing normally fighting against another new player who’s using his credit card can be said to be at a disadvantage, but in practice this doesn’t actually happen in EVE because it’s an open-world PvP game, and you don’t get to pick your battles like that.

@Rhinanna

Been able to replace any losses during war easily…

This is a slightly better vector for the “P2W” argument, but it ignores the fact that you’re paying money and losing anyway.

[Manweru_Cemenotar]

@Rhinanna

Did you DELIBERATELY cut the end of that quote off?

The bit where it says, either not available to players through normal gameplay or requires an unreasonable amount or time/effort to acquire

It is ironic, that the one complaining about be “cutting of” the quote, seems to have failed to read the post to it’s full end.

It did not “cut the end of the quote off”, I have split the quote in two parts, and then addressed both parts separately. Which You should notice had you read the full post.

@Rhinanna

I think the fact that it takes literally multiple years to train up to fly a titan counts under the 2nd part which you excluded…

This requirement was in the game long before injectors/extractors became a thing, and yet people were flying titans for years before that change came to pass.

That being said amount of extractors You would require to skip this would also result in unreasonable money investment required. So I would say it balances itself out - titans are not meant to be flown by everyone.

Bonus points is that titan without proper support fleet is freebie kill for fleets requiring much less sp’s at hand, so is that really an advantage?

While at it…

@Destiny_Corrupted

To expound on this concept: the game could be considered “P2W” in this regard only if you look at every match-up between players in isolation. A new player who’s playing normally fighting against another new player who’s using his credit card can be said to be at a disadvantage, but in practice this doesn’t actually happen in EVE because it’s an open-world PvP game, and you don’t get to pick your battles like that.

I would like to expand on this notion. A new player who progresses in the game by actually playing will be forced in a way to actually learn mechanics, and after not so long he will be able to effortlessly win any fight against the guy who just sweeps credit card at next shiny ship. All while not even having to earn amounts of isk comparable to fit costs of the “p2w” guy. Who has advantage in here again?

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@Manweru_Cemenotar

@Destiny_Corrupted

To expound on this concept: the game could be considered “P2W” in this regard only if you look at every match-up between players in isolation. A new player who’s playing normally fighting against another new player who’s using his credit card can be said to be at a disadvantage, but in practice this doesn’t actually happen in EVE because it’s an open-world PvP game, and you don’t get to pick your battles like that.

I would like to expand on this notion. A new player who progresses in the game by actually playing will be forced in a way to actually learn mechanics, and after not so long he will be able to effortlessly win any fight against the guy who just sweeps credit card at next shiny ship. All while not even having to earn amounts of isk comparable to fit costs of the “p2w” guy. Who has advantage in here again?

This is entirely true, but the people complaining about “P2W” will never be convinced of this fact.

[Scarlet_Starfire]

It might seem like a true statement to you, but it definitely seems false to me.

EVE is P2W has been since multiple accounts being used at the same time.

Don’t know why so many are in denial it’s almost like P2W is something dirty, rather than just being a fact of life.

[David_Semris]

I have returned after several years as well and I will most likely quit within a week. Now lot of people will rejoice as I was a high sec miner / mission runner and casual wormhole explorer and casual visiter to null sec to annoy people with stealth bomber.

Back in the days PLEX price was 300 mils and as a miner you could have made decent profit mostly by mining ice. Then the PLEX price went up to like a billion, these days it´s 1,3 billion, while the ice price dropped drastically. I have no idea what happened, if it´s gameplay changes and ice is no longer as needed as before or if it´s bot fleets but mining ice is just a waste of time.

What´s worst, I was looking for the community and people that I used to play with. There is no one. Ice belts are dead, just orcas with mining drones, no real miners, no CODE, no content. What the heck happened?

Seeing my low profit and no community interaction, I could just log out for year and let my character train, then buy few PLEXes instead of actually making money through gameplay and be done with it.

Not sure what happened but the result doesn´t seems good. Raising PLEX prices and price deflation on some commodities (the economy should stand on) is a very strange combo.

[Ishmael_Ronuken]

The only time paying in this game matters is when you pay to immediately enter t2 equipment. Even still, paying for Skilling is something that you should only do to treat yourself as it honestly only saves you a few days and adds 1-5% benefit to the skill.

I’d argue the most pay to win feature is having no concern when you lose a ship. Even still, there’s so many ways to make an actual good income and living in this game that there’s just no need unless you want to have a bit of cushion in your wallet.

Honestly, I feel people who wallet dump too often are missing a good portion of the actual game which is finding your niche in a cosmic nation. It feels good when you finally find the things that work for you and find others you mesh well with. This is, after all, a game of embarking out and making something of yourself in an open world, the sky’s the limit literally.

[Destiny_Corrupted]

@David_Semris

Back in the days PLEX price was 300 mils and as a miner you could have made decent profit mostly by mining ice. Then the PLEX price went up to like a billion, these days it´s 1,3 billion, while the ice price dropped drastically. I have no idea what happened, if it´s gameplay changes and ice is no longer as needed as before or if it´s bot fleets but mining ice is just a waste of time.

It’s actually very easy to understand what happened: too many carebears grinding PvE content, both at the low end (mining Veldspar) and high end (farming incursions). Of course PLEX prices will hit astronomic levels; there are too many players multi-boxing alts to try to stuff their pockets with as much ISK as they can, and too few players willing to drop some cash on a PLEX for a few PvP ships.

Not that you in particular are a full-on carebear (they don’t usually go into wormholes or fly stealth bombers), but this is exactly what we’ve been telling them would happen; grind too much and never do any PvP, and you’ll tank the market and kill your own reasons for playing the game.

@David_Semris

Seeing my low profit and no community interaction, I could just log out for year and let my character train, then buy few PLEXes instead of actually making money through gameplay and be done with it.

Or, you could switch your play style to something that doesn’t involve semi-AFK sucking rocks all day.

@David_Semris

Not sure what happened but the result doesn´t seems good. Raising PLEX prices and price deflation on some commodities (the economy should stand on) is a very strange combo.

It’s not like CCP are raising those PLEX prices. If you want to actually help, buy some PLEX for cash and sell it for ISK, and then use that ISK to buy things instead of producing your own, and then use those things to go out and try to blow up other things, so that demand for things goes up.

[tutucox_Khamsi]

i was a industrialist and miner
but i turned into a warrior
liked both , eve is a game with much to do
dont be ashamed of doing what you want
i still like markets, do some shenanigans here and there in jita
i kill people , day by day
i get killed , day by day , got killed 922 times , doesn’t care , I’m immortal
i killed ships that some times costs 10 times mine
2v1, 3v1 ,escaping gate camps , fighting the largest corps in the game , i have one kill of all of them
the best dudes , the noobest of the noobs , i fight all, i don’t like to bail , i bail only t2 frig vs my coercer, but i fight kikis ,.,.,
me and onther guys like @Fluff_Alole , in the solo , or bjorn bee in solo/fun noob fleet, @Xtra_Squishy_lol in alt/friend assisted pvp/humor , or even Jin’taan in “serious” fleet stuff all break you pay to win narrative
you guys are clueless , don’t know ■■■■ about the game, don’t have balls to risk ■■■■, don’t have self determination , bunch of sheeps
education cost isk in eve , the best you can have cost ships
but is not about fake char skills, is about player skills
i dont say I’m good, but I’m better day by day, i have a npc station with more than 50 ships ready to be exploded , i stay in local with 40 WT chatting , no fear, I’m friend of my enemies , its not personal (mimies need to be persons to be personal ) jokes aside , they are cool , they are doing the same ■■■■ I’m doing just in the other side , without them i have nothing to do
you guys confuse gameplay with morals , the worst pirate in a dystopian space mmo is a nice person , talk to him you will see, he is just having fun , you are not, you are here complaining in the forum , of a game you say you don’t like, just STFU
evem @delonewolf is a ultra cool guy , he is more in the care bear spectrum , but he have a lot of money, he can take care of himself in eve , the man do what he wants
you know what he doesn’t do? complain like a bit$$#
look at my killboard or any other pilot that is better tham me, and you will see few bling modules, a lot of t2 modules t1 ships , sweat and fun
less qq moar pew pew
o7