We have some of the largest faucets in the history of EVE happening with a reduced player count.
You keep peddling these numbers while failing to address the elephant in the room and instead deflecting (& using the arguments of a few other people who let you deflect).
Quite simply there is a serious issue in EVE that has gotten systematically worse, and you are attempting to use principles that also assume that population always grows to pretend it’s all ok.
Your claims somewhere that Isk supply must always grow otherwise deflation happens for instance. That’s quite simply not true. Since any money supply then needs to be taken on a per capita basis. If your money supply increases but your population increases faster, less wealth for everyone. If your money supply decreases but your population decreases faster, more wealth for everyone (Ignoring the issues regarding wealth concentration which a graph a while back very clearly showed that EVE actually has, and that most posters on the forums regarding isk matters are in the wealthy 10-20% of EVE at least, if not the top 1-5%.)
Now I’m not going to bother to follow this up, because you almost certainly can nitpick my points apart and beat me over the head with endless figures till any point I attempt to keep making is buried. But the long & short is that you are spinning this story big time with your claims. And we aren’t all getting distracted by the trees.
Are totally different since they simulate a subscription for training purposes only that legacy code issues got in the way of. And are no more buying SP’s than a normal subscription is. But you already know that.
Injectors are injectors, regardless of what they “simulate”. CCP originally stated that injectors would always come from ingame generated SP. The alpha injectors are clearly going against this statement. They could just as easily have given Alphas accelerators and avoid the entire controversy of setting a precedent of selling SP for RL money.
Or if legacy code is really such an issue fix or replace the code base first and then add new things? CCP has been complaining about legacy code for at least 5 years now but only does baby steps to improve the situation.
Actually they said that the SP would come from in-game SP generated via subscriptions. They now offer a 1-day subscription, it just happens to be called an “injector”.
I dont expect Alpha Injectors will have much impact (except as a breaker of CCP precedents), and some pocket change for CCP from noobs that dont know any better.
They are only worth it until 5mil SP, after which sub takes precedent.
I honestly doubt many new players have the patience to grind all that, and non-new Alpha alts will just buy a sub with Buddy, for a free full PLEX.
Dude you were in that thread about the fighter nerf. The problem with 2017 is for one month…yes one month…the ISK supply grew by 64 Trillion ISK. If that had not happened my guess is the ISK supply would have grown somewhere between 70-90 trillion which is is actually on the low side historically.
And That one month of massive ISK growth, CCP jumped on that and shut it down ASAP. They got Hell for it, but they clamped down on it. I doubt CCP Quant will want to interact with players ever again they were such toxic ■■■■ f**ks.
No, my claim is that if the ISK supply does not grow as fast as the real economy then there will be deflation. Some deflation would be fine for awhile, but too much deflation or going on for too long could pose a serious problem. Think Great Depression.
Since you are starting from a premise I have never stated…so?
It isn’t the population that is the issue, it is the real economy.
Are you familiar with the equation of exchange? It is an accounting identity. It is stated as:
M * V = P * Q.
M: the money supply.
V: Velocity of money.
P: The price level.
Q: An index of real expenditures.
So, P*Q are nominal expenditures.
Population is nowhere in there. Now, if M and V are constant, and Q goes up…what must happen to P? It goes down to maintain equality.
So a country could have a declining population, but a real economy that is increasing and if the money supply expands too slowly you get deflation.
It is close to 50% and we actually have the data to show that. The total market volume in the MERs accounts for every trade that was made using the market window, maybe also contracts and direct trade. This is the same for PLEX, Random Ship X and Random Item Y. To give one example, there are many modules of which a certain percentage will at least be traded twice before they leave Jita, once sold to a buyorder, then bought from a sellorder. Both are counted in the total market volume.
Yeah sorry, English isn’t my first language, so I tend to make stupid mistakes at certain times of the day. I wasn’t calling you an idiot though, just to make that clear. Instead I was asking you to please not make me treat you like one, by forcing me to repeat every little logical step over and over again, lest you’ll jump on it.
RL-money related items are items that solely enter the game with RL-money, not with spending active time in-game. PLEX are bought for money. Extractors are bought for money or for PLEX. Injectors consist of Extractors and SP. SP come into the game either by paying for a Subscription, using PLEX for gametime or buying an Alpha Injector.
You’re totally right that the same applies for every SKIN and piece of Apparel that couldn’t be acquired in other ways, but I know that for Monocles and certain SKINs. If you have a list and it isn’t too long, I could do the work. Just link it. If anything it will just get us closer to the 50%. SKINs and Apparel that have been sold in the NES and also dropped during Events are a hybrid and we don’t have any way to say how many of them have been bought with RL-money or RL-money-related items and how many of them have been acquired by spending active time in game.
It is not me double-counting, it is the MER. The same for every random item that is sold X times before it is used again, then lays in a hangar for Y months, brought back to the market and sold Z times again.
You know the Price History tab in the market window? Look under Quantity and you’ll see how many of that item have been traded the given day. If the very same PLEX has been sold back and forth again and again, it will count every single trade.
Now, from 1st to 31st of December the total number of PLEX traded in The Forge are: 58,527,188.
58.5 Million PLEX traded in December. The average price for that time is somewhere over 3.3M, but let’s say between 3.2M and 3.4M, which means the total trade volume of PLEX in Dec17 was between 187.2 and 198.9 Trillion. That is PLEX alone.
Total amount of Extractors traded: 148952. Average price between 370 and 380 Million. Total market volume between 55.1 and 56.6 Trillion.
Total amount of Injectors traded: 197163. Average price between 780 and 790 Million. Total market volume between 153.8 and 155.7 Trillion.
Total market volume of RL-money related Items in The Forge, December 2017, excluding SKINs and Apparel:
396.1 to 411.2 Trillion ISK.
Total market volume for The Forge in December according to MER: 725,3 Trillion ISK.
PLEX, Injector, Extractor market share: 54.6% to 56.7% of overall Market Volume in Dec17 in The Forge.
There you have it. That’s why I ask you to not make me treat you like an idiot. You could have easily run these numbers yourself or even accepted my low estimate of up to 50%. Instead you are being lazy and the outcome of that is only that I run the numbers and find that my low estimate, was indeed low.
Your opinion is your opinion, the numbers above are facts. You should change your opinion now, knowing them.
Okay to 1. In 2. you have a misunderstanding between PLEX-related and RL-money related. The major part of that assumed 450 Trillion is indeed PLEX-related, but Extractors can also be bought directly and the SP part of Injectors could as well be bought with gametime via subscription. 3. is a bit high, as you say, but okay.
Now in 4. you make two mistakes. First you repeat the misunderstanding from 2., but the even greater mistake is to assume that every PLEX is sold only once in game before it is consumed. This is certainly not the case. You end up with a number much greater than the reality will be.
and 6. are essentially wrong because 2. and 4. are wrong. CCP isn’t netting anywhere near that much in PLEX-sales, at least that’s what their past business reports indicate.
In 8. you suddenly jump back from RL-sales of PLEX into the ingame market, then mix both of them, then go back to my old “below $20 Million”, repeat the wrong assumption that every PLEX is trade only once in-game and come to another wrong conclusion.
Just use the numbers that we have in-game to see it. I’ve done all the work as you can see above. Either trust me on the numbers or run them yourself.
For reasons. I think looking at ISK faucets vs. ISK sinks and the % of RL-money related items in the total market volume, lets us understand wether or not there is devaluation of non-Nullsec PvE and non-top-tier Industry careers. For me it seems clear, that we have that devaulation to a great extent. And I think that this is unhealthy for the game, not just because it accelerates the devide between rich and poor in EVE, but also because it either leads to more grinding for the average player or to higher incentives for RMT or to a strong incentive to buy PLEX for the poor player. The latter might be good for the game in the short run, but given the circumstances, this will only bleed players out and leave them with a bad experience as in: Pay 2 not win, pay not to not win even harder. It is mostly a problem for people not already in-game rich, i.e. newer players.
The numbers also tell me that “the real economy” (which isn’t quite the same as in RL) in terms of Production, Items sales and so on, is much smaller, than what Tekhos thought it would be.
ISK, faction loot, ressources, production come into existence with active players time. If you want to look at Inflation, you cannot look at ISK-inflation, but at play-time inflation. You pretend that RL economy and EVE economy work in the same ways, but they surely do not. ISK and real money do not work in the same way.
It was you who started with Inflation. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that real life economical analysis needs to be re-thought in order to be useful for analyzing EVE economy. Just a few more notes on that:
There is nearly no consumption in EVE. Most of everything can be re-sold over and over again. In real life almost everything knows consumption.
In EVE there is only ISK, while in RL we have many currencies. Also, what about monetary policies?
The creation of money works entirely different in both worlds
In RL the economy adapts to changes such as actual safety of a region. In EVE the payouts are determined by pre-set rules, not by actual events that make a region safe or less safe.
I will repeat: if there is inflation in EVE, it is inflation of average active game time, especially outside of Nullsec.
The reason the money supply went up in May, was that 15.5 Trillion ISK re-entered the game with players. In the following month 57 Trillion left the game in the same way. Yet ISK Faucets - ISK Sinks are pretty close to each other in both months, +49 Tril vs +40 Tril.
Who said that in-game PLEX show on financial statements? They need to show for PLEX that are being sold with real money. We cannot look further into it. What we can do is look at the MER and the Market History and find the % of PLEX,Injectors and Extractors of the Total Market Volume inside the game.
Hm, that’s a pretty general statement, easy to make, if there is no attempt to prove it. But what the heck, if that is how you feel about it, okay. Learning new perspectives is always good, but I personally doubt I can learn from a general: “You’re wrong”.
I never said either of you was “wrong” regarding the economic back and forth, although I might have implied it was mostly ■■■■■■■■ (I’m using the technical term, not the vulgar slang). Mostly I said it was amusing. I couldn’t say you were any-more right or wrong than if you had been arguing about the colour of the unicorns in your garage. (All the unicorns in my garage are pink ← this is a true statement.)
At some point, or in some degree, all of the EvE economic discussions from the past two years come back to this blog post (even if you haven’t read it directly). Or at least the line of the balance sheet it talks about in the last section “PLEX”.
If the blogger is correct that the line on the balance sheet “In-game purchases not yet consumed” is a figure representing in-game PLEX, then not only is CCP hiring ex-EA guys to destroy the game, but they are hiring ex-Enron accountants to balance their books. I think/hope that line is referring to EvE Time Codes or the likes that are real world transactions with real world legal liabilities attached to them. Once the PLEX or anything else becomes an in-game asset it has been consumed, and it can no longer show on a balance sheet as an unearned income, it has been earned.
The MER do not list in-game PLEX, the financial reports cannot (legally or logically) list fictional in-game assets that can be destroyed in-game, like PLEX, so any statements about the amount of PLEX in-game in hangers is pure speculation, or to use the technical term: ■■■■■■■■.
You both might be very skilled economists, I’m not, and I don’t pretend to be. But, there are important pieces of information that are needed for your argument that neither of you have, so it’s entertaining to watch the dance. Sorry for “cutting in” at the greatly amusing part where the two of you couldn’t even see that you were saying the same thing.
At first I thought this is a pretty elaborate way of calling someone an idiot, but then I realized that it wasn’t.
Yep, I linked the blog above as well. “In-game purchases not yet consumed” could mean PLEX in general, but the numbers would leave some questions. Also I wonder about a possible reason to account for the amount of in-game PLEX in a business report.
Regarding the latter, it could be, that there anti-money-laundering laws or regulations which ask for transparency regarding in-game currencies which can be bought with real money. State institutions like the IRS might not care what players think about “player made economy” as long as you can buy something that factually is an in-game currency with real money. One rogue employee and you have a money laundering and tax evasion case of possibly business-breaking proportions, so it could make sense to keep a tight grip on that.
On the other hand, you could understand “not yet consumed” as it was already bought for real money, but has not yet been redeemed in-game, which then seems to be quite large a number. Or
What? There is nothing in the MER files about extractors.
It is double counting if you count both extractors and injectors. Suppose I take 100 ISK worth of minerals and combine them into 150 ISK worth of a “final” good. Let’s say ammo of some sort. The total value is not 100 + 150 = 250. It is 150…the final value.
If an injector costs say 700 million ISK, and an extractor costs 350 million ISK, where did the other 350 million ISK come from? SP. So if you count both the extractor and the injector you are essentially counting the extractor twice and the SP which can only be produced in game. And noting SP are created by a sub, then just about EVERYTHING is basically PLEX related and the market trade value is 100% PLEX related. I can’t build an ishtar if I don’t have a subscription (either via PLEX or RL money).
And note I am using the term “PLEX related”. That is because when you talk about PLEX, extractors, skins and apparel, you don’t talk about them all in terms of each item you convert them over to a single unit of meaure. A numeraire good. So when I say “PLEX related” it means PLEX, extractors, skins and apparel. PLEX is the numeraire.
Yes, I did that for PLEX and Extractors…it was not 50%. Maybe if you throw in injectors, but that is double counting and including SP…which cannot be bought outright for RL currency. I didn’t do it for all the skins because…well crap there are alot of them, and many of those markets are super thin. Like the Abaddon Star Captain Skin has had 7 skins sold since October 9 2017. And that was in the forge…so I doubt you’ll get to 50%. Even 40% sounds like much.
The market window gives you both the quantity and the average price. Granted, I’d prefer the median, but we have to use what we got.
Which is double counting…you are counting all the extractors you just counted in the step before and now you are adding the SP as well. Why not Ishtars, Jump Freighters and all the T2 1400 artillery sold? Can’t make those without a subscription.
And you are still double counting. At most you got,
250 million and based on my calculations using the average price from the in game market window it lower than that. Here is the table for PLEX.
Total value is the Quantity Column x the Avg. Column.
FYI: You can get this data by highlight the top row in game in the market history window and then scroll down and holding the shift key click on the last row. Paste into Excel. Use search and replace for ’ ISK’ with nothing in the replace field to get rid of all those annoying spaces and ISK characters. Ta-da workable spreadsheet.
A similar calculation for Extractors gives us 56.246 Trillion. That is just under 35% of the Forge market trade value for December. To get to 450 trillion the skins/apparel market would have to be actually as big or bigger than the PLEX market. I kinda doubt that.
Because you shouldn’t be counting injectors. I read your argument. I understand your argument. But the price of an injector is based on the cost of the extractor (whoops) and SP (which are produced in game just as are ishtars and panthers yet we aren’t counting those).
How can there be a mistake in 2. That is your claim. That 50% of the market trade value is basically PLEX, either PLEX directly or PLEX equivalents. In economics you translate everything into a single value. It could be a numeraire good–i.e. everything is expressed in terms of rubber dog poop, or butter knives, or it is expressed in terms of money. I chose as my numeraire PLEX. So, no there is no error on my part.
Okay, fair enough. Do you see what I tried to do in terms of converting everything over to a numeraire good–i.e. converting extractors, skins, and apparel to PLEX? My goal was to show that there are alot more “PLEX” on the market if we use your 50% number than there likely is.
So, I’ve explained why 2 is fine (I’m trying to convert everything over to PLEX…that is Skins, Extractors and Apparel to PLEX…PLEX are already PLEX so no conversion). So you accept 1 and 3. I argue 2 is legitimate as well since we want a common good. So if 2 is fine as well, it implies that there are 125 million PLEX and PLEX related items on the market when we convert everything over to the numeraire–PLEX. In Jita for December there are 58,527,188 actual honest to God PLEX sold as per the in game market window. There were 15,623,953 PLEX worth of Exctrators sold. Now, to get to 50% for Jita alone that means skins and apparel have to account for 26,586,910 PLEX worth of skins and apparel.
That is the Skins and Apparel market has to be worth about half of the PLEX market. Yet alot of those markets are ridiculously thin with just 1 or 2 skins selling every few months. And alot of those skins sell for prices like 100,000 ISK.
I’m not buying it. Not 50%.
You can try to justify counting injectors again, but again…that’s wrong. You don’t double count. Every injector had to start in game as an extractor. So you should subtract of the extractor value at the very least. Your argument that SP come only via a sub is weak as many things in game come about only via a sub.
50% is too large, and 55% is right out. 55% means that the skins market is pretty 2/3rds big as the PLEX market in Jita and those skins actually represent sunk PLEX. Supposedly PLEX are being traded alot…but a huge chunk are leaving the game.
Careful here. When I take that 100 ISK of mins and use them to make 150 worth of ammo…I consumed the mins. They cannot be used for anything else. And ammo does get consumed. Robotics get consumed. Lots of things get consumed in game. You are right a ship is like a consumer durable with no depreciation which is why destruction is important, but to say there is no consumption is wrong.
You are correct that RL doesn’t map over to EVE…but the issue is that EVE is actually simpler. Money and banking IRL is a complicated and nauseating morass of economics and politics (it is the latter that is nauseating). Politics and banking are very intertwined in many countries and the politicians usually make a complete hash of things. When you look at countries that have succeeded in keeping the politics minimal (e.g. Canada, or Scotland prior to moving under the Bank of England) the systems are quite robust (e.g. Canada has never had a financial crisis…ever, and the period of Scottish free banking was remarkably stable, about 80 years). Ironically we know what good central banking practices are under a central bank regime…Walter Bagehot laid these principles out well over a century ago in Lombard Street.
In game, it is much much simpler. We don’t have all the nonsense like certified debt obligations, credit default swaps, synthetic credit default swaps, and on and on. We just have ISK, a finance sector that is pathetic and week and if people like Chribba left the game it would wither and die in short order. And ISK is obtained by trading leisure time for ISK. So, there is a fairly stable relationship there unless something changes. Like the change to fighters last…April or so. Then it became much, much easier to trade leisure time for ISK and in the month of may ISK shot up in game about 64 trillion, with (IIRC`) about 53 trillion being just characters wallets. CCP jumped on it immediately.
I went back and skimmed through the threadnaught on that zluq and you were not there at all. Maybe you weren’t in game. Maybe you weren’t on the forums. But I was there. I was there arguing that that kind of ISK flow was very, very bad. I am not arguing for hyperinflation. I am trying to put inflation and money growth in game into ■■■■■■■ perspective. Take out that 64 trillion due to May and a design flaw and put in say the average for all other months and 2017 would have had something on the order of 60-70 Trillion ISK added to the economy. That would have made 2017 the second lowest year in terms of ISK growth since 2012 maybe even the lowest.
Does this consider isk delta, as lost by player attrition?
CCP sunk some 32k accounts in 2017, iirc.
You yourself often claim that such longitudinal analysis of isk introduction is statistically problematic, as it doesnt account for events occurring during those previous periods.
If we are talking about a % change in isk introduction across years, a 1% increase last year, is more isk than a 1% increase in 2012.
Short answer: Yes. You can go to the May 2017 MER and look at the numbers there. The 64 trillion is the total ISK added after the active ISK delta.
It is simply comparing the 2 years total ISK creation. 2017 is “high” because of 1 month. One fecking month. Take that out and it isn’t high at all.
And that one month was because CCP made a mistake…and fixed it ASAP.
I know you all can do simple math.
So, in 2017 we have the following facts.
Total ISK added to the money supply: 121 trillion.
Total ISK added to the game in May: 64 Trillion.
Total ISK added in 11 months (excluding May): 57 Trillion. Do you see the fecking problem yet?
57 trillion divided by 11 is 5 trillion. Adding that average in for May (i.e. what ISK creation would have looked like without the ratting problem gives us 62 trillion ISK.
2012 saw 64 trillion ISK added to the game.
So, generally 2017 was actually lower than 2012 in terms of ISK growth than 2012, the lowest ISK growth year in the record that we have access to numbers.
I have said having access to longitudinal data would be nice, but not going to happen. Account info is confidential and I doubt CCP will ever let anyone other than an employ or an academic researcher (who has signed the appropriate NDAs) look at it.
But in terms of May 2017 we can simply look at the graph and see that May is quite unique…a true outlier (largely because CCP acted quickly to nerf the problem).
Here is what people are saying:
OMG isk growth was 121 trillion ISK…that’s alot especially when there are fewer players.
We need to nerf ISK growth.
I’m saying:
ISK growth is not out of line with the historical data.
2017 looks “high” because of May 2017 and the changes to fighters which made ratting with carriers and supers highly efficient.
CCP ALREADY NERFED THAT FECKING PROBLEM.
Read 4 again. The thing everyone thinks needs to happen…IT ALREADY GODDAMNED FECKING HAPPENED.
To be clear, there was a problem with ISK creation…in May 2017. CCP saw it. CCP nerfed it.
To be clear, there was a problem with ISK creation…in May 2017. CCP saw it. CCP nerfed it.
To be clear, there was a problem with ISK creation…in May 2017. CCP saw it. CCP nerfed it.
To be clear, there was a problem with ISK creation…in May 2017. CCP saw it. CCP nerfed it.
To be clear, there was a problem with ISK creation…in May 2017. CCP saw it. CCP nerfed it.
To be clear, there was a problem with ISK creation…in May 2017. CCP saw it. CCP nerfed it.
Is it clear now?
I don’t know how else to tell everyone this. We are not seeing a crap ton of ISK flooding the economy. We saw it for one month. So did CCP. They took action and the rate of ISK entering the economy slowed.
FFS…
2017 in percentage terms is 2017 is the 4th highest out of the last 6 years. It is in the bottom half of the distribution. It is 3rd highest in absolute value…but only because of the issue in May.
So everyone head back to the data and look again for yet another reason to hold on to this belief. After all, changing your beliefs given new evidence…why that is just goddamned crazy talk.
Please spare me these childish examples with 100 here, 100 there. If a Skill Extractor is bought on the market, it goes into the Total Market Volume. If it is then filled with SP and the subsequently created Skill Injector is sold on the market, it goes into the Total Market Volume too. If that Skill Injector is sold back and forth 99 times, each of these 99 trades go into the Total Market volume.
The MER counts all of that, so it isn’t me double-counting.
I defined PLEX-related as items that solely come into existance if someone, somewhere pays real money for them.
It was me, who came up with that term, you don’t need me to explain my own concept.
I gave you exact numbers and all you come up with it was “wasn’t 50%”. No, it was more than that. And yes, Injectors include SP, but that doesn’t change anything about the fact that Injectors, Extractors and PLEX together make up for around, sometimes more, 50% of the Total Market Volume, in the The Forge. Present me numbers, like I did for you, who prove otherwise.
And by the way, extractable SP only come into existance by spending RL money. Do you have to wait for them to be extractable, yes. Do you get them totally passive? Yes. So, what exactly is your point?
Okay, let me explain this to you. The Total Market Volume, will count every single market trade that has been made. If someone buys Minerals, Advanced Moon Minerals or whatever, then builds T2 Components from them, sells these, another person comes around, buys these T2 Components and builds an Ishtar to sell that, each of these Trades count into the Total Market Volume.
If you want, buy an Ishtar and sell it back and forth to yourself in some small region in New Eden. Do it again and again and again and you’ll see it on the next MER.
Ah nice, I didn’t know that. Thanks.
You have to remember this: the question was how large the market share of PLEX-related items is. Items, which can solely be acquired by spending RL-money. And okay, the “activity” of logging in, setting a Skillqueue for a year, redeeming PLEX or whatever. Anyhow, items which come into the game without interacting in PvE, Production, Ratting and so on.
If you don’t like that Skill Injectors are traded on the market or that they appear in the Total Market Volume, file a complaint or so. You can’t just pretend that something around 150 Trillion in The Forge has to be excluded for philosophical reasons, while actually it is actually counted in. It’s like driving a car and saying “that wall shouldn’t be there, so I will just keep on driving”. Well, it is there wether you like it or not.
I get the feeling that we’re doing this dance, you asking me to spoonfeed you very obvious things, because you don’t want to admit what the implications for the game are. Trade volume of produced items or what you call “real economy” is nowhere near as strong as you would like to believe. At most it is 50% of the Total Market Volume and even in there you have many double-counts for items that are sold several times.
It is not me making this decision. It is traded on the market and thus counts into the total Trade volume, which you can find in the MER. I also understand that you think this is double-counting and yes, it is. Just as much as every item that is traded back and forth is double, triple or centuple counting. We cannot change that and we don’t have access to data for each single Ishtar 1, Ishtar 2, Ishtar 3 and so on. What we can do is discuss wether or not PLEX-related items will be subject to higher or lower speculative buys than other items.
SP are given to you entirely passively. An Ishtar needs to be build from components, it requires Skills, Factories, Ressources Allocation, Invention and all kind of other things to get from 0 to Ishtar. All you need for SP is RL money and a bit of waiting. There is no upper limit on how much SP/hour you want to create. Just sub 1000 Accounts and create SP 1000 times faster than everyone else.
Maybe your confusion comes from looking at the item from a single point of view. You can buy PLEX for money, sell PLEX in-game for ISK and can buy everything with ISK. That’s why it might seem to you, that everything is created by RL money. No. ISK, items, Ships, and so on they also require player activitiy and interaction with the game. The exchange rate PLEX vs. ISK/Item basically tells you what average real-life work is worth in comparison with average EVE work, for the specific playerbase in the specific game called EVE Online.
Maybe I was a bit too precise, but what I meant is that you can buy Skill Extractors through PLEX in the NES, but you can also buy Skill Extractors directly at CCP, 10 for $45 or something. The reason I mentioned it, is that there will never be any PLEX involved in buying these, and by counting these Skill Extractors into the stash of in-game PLEX will falsify the result.
Yes I saw it and that’s why I wrote: " the even greater mistake is to assume that every PLEX is sold only once
in game before it is consumed. This is certainly not the case. You end
up with a number much greater than the reality will be."
You took the amount of traded PLEX in-game and stipulated that this number must be equivalent with the amount of PLEX CCP sold. That’s wrong and I tried to explain it.
I don’t know how often I have to repeat, that it isn’t me who made the decision to handle Skill Injectors just as any market tradeable item. You want to pretend the 155 Trillion in Skill Injectors is not included in the MERs Total Market Volume? Well, go ahead, I can’t stop you with reason.
Well, if you exclude 155 Trillion from the calculation by declaring that you won’t accept Skill Injectors indeed being market tradeable items, who have a trade volume, which appears in the MER, you indeed do not reach the 50%. In that case you should at least substract the 155 Trillion from the Total Market Volume of 725 Trillion and make every following calculation based on that. It absolutely falsifies the result and PLEX+Extractors will still be between 42 and 45% of 725 Trillion aka Teckos-Market-Volume-without-Skill-Injectors. It would be like taking 2 times 3 apples, throw 1 apple of group 1 away, because you don’t like its color, then make a recount. 3 vs. 3 means 5 alltogether, so each group has 50% of that. You prefer to exclude one apple, even though it is obviously there, but then you should at least stick the mathematics and compare 2 vs. 3 against 5, which is 40% vs. 60% and not 2 vs. 3 against 6, because then you end up with 33% vs 50% with 17% unaccounted for.
I said there is nearly no consumption, NEARLY. Yes Ammo is an example, Boosters are another. Robotics … where do Robotics get consumed? They live forth as part of the item created with them, until it gets destroyed or trashed.
That’s why I said “nearly”. Let’s make a list. Ammo, Boosters, what else? Anything else disappears without being part of a production chain, being destroyed or trashed? There are probably a few more items, but I can’t think of any.
I totally agree with the importance of Destruction, but if we look at the numbers, we see that each month production is massively overshadowing destruction. And it escalates over time, because there is NEARLY no consumption.
I don’t know where you’ve read that Canada never had an economic crisis or did you not mean that? The harsh contrast in which you see banks and the state is grotesque. Banks can only exist with the protection of the state and its armed bodies, or why else would anyone accept the existence of an institution whose only use is the concentration of capital through the means of branching off percentages of other peoples work in form of money? The state protects the banks. Without it, you’d probably see a very ugly form of spontaneous mass-vigilance against bankers.
I explained it before and I will do it again. It has not been fixed. Bounties alone were 69 Trillion in May and apart from the typical summer-low this didn’t significantly change. November: 63 Trillion, December: 66 Trillion. The reason the numbers for May are so high, is that these are numbers for Total Money Supply and “sadly” there wasn’t the typical -20 to -50 Trillion ISK change due to players leaving the game in May17.
The question is, wether or not something that can be done semi-afk in terms of trading leisure time for ISK should be so easy compared to other aspects of active gameplay. Now one could say, that it would auto-regulate, but that would only be true if there was consumption of MOST goods and/or proper amount of destruction. But there isn’t. In turn there will be no auto-regulation. Another option would be to topple the dominance of ISK as the currency and let people buy PLEX for Salvage, Trit or whatever. That’d be probably the worst of all possible solutions though.
One thing that I found quite remarkable in the MERs is that you can clearly see other Nullsec areas reaction to Delve. It is almost like they see what Goons brought up in Bounties the month before and try to keep up. I mean this entire discussion focusses a lot on Goons, because they bring up most of the bounties. There probably are some people who take part in the discussion who let their feelings cloud their judgements, but the problem is, if I have to say that, not, that the bounties in Delve are so high. The problem is that it is too easy to exchange leisure time for ISK in regions of Sov Null which are relatively safe due to current mechanics. It is a problem because it forces everyone to grind. Grinding should not be an essential part of space chess. I don’t mean work, we are all puttingour brains and time into this game. Grinding is unhealthy, for the person and the game and it should be the least valueable form of activity.
Yep, simpler and also entirely different. I mean real life economics are the current form of how people transform nature (I use it as a pretty wide term here) into at least a hospitable, if not appealing place. Yes the current form of how humans organize that is unjust, not always smart and encourages short-minded egoisms over strategies for the common good, but that’s for another discussion. EVE on the other hand is a game. It does not feed us, we don’t have to participate in it. To participate in this game and thus its “economy”, is entirely free-will based, unlike the real economy. The very basic form of economy in EVE is trading one form of in-game work for another, in the form of ISK, products or whatever that work creates within the game. The same counts for FCs and such jobs, that aren’t pre-defined in the game. Player usually accept this, if only for the fact that they need, but can’t exercise/create what others do. ISK is set by game-mechanics to be the currency. A currency is the specific form of money. Money is the generalized form of value, in which all other values can be expressed. In EVEs case: active players time. Would there be a better item for that than ISK? I don’t know, but it might be fun to start dealing with regions as regions and create a currency for each one of them. If you rat in Delve, you get the currency of Delve. If you do it in Metropolis, you get the currency of there. Same if you want to do something in a place, for which you need to pay taxes. Could be fun.
Thanks for the short recap. I’ve already kind of replied to that above. The change in Total Money Supply in May was so high, because in May there wasn’t the average 20 to 50 Trillion ISK leaving the game with player accounts. Check bounties and “active ISK Delta” (that’s how CCP calls player ISK becoming active or inactive) for May to December and you’ll see it yourself.
The bounties in May and the following months are almost the same. 69 Trillion in May, 63 in June, then it goes down due to summer-low to 50 Trillion in August, before going up again to 63 Trillion in November.
Teckos, you should feel ashamed for trying switching between money supply and bounties, whenever it suits you.
The reason the money supply went up in May was because there wasn’t the usual minus 20 to minus 50 Trillion ISK leaving with players, but actually 15 Trillion ISK coming back with players.
May: Bounties=69 Trillion / Active ISK Delta: 15 Trillion.
November: Bounties=63 Trillion / Active ISK Delta: - 27.7 Trillion (that is MINUS 27.7 Trillion)
See images from the MER at the end of the post.
The bounties are very high in both months, but in just one of them, unlike for most months over the rest of the year, the effect of the massive ISK faucet named bounties, was seen for what it is in the MER. CCP did a smart job of introducing the Active ISK Delta into the table, without actually drawing it, because it would look ugly. But at least they don’t call it an ISK sink.
Teckos, they haven’t fixed anything. The bounties stayed the same. There are just so many people leaving the game right now and for some reason in May, many came back. Was due to an Update, probably.
Opening the ISK faucet is certainly not a mistake by CCP, they know what they are doing. I personally think it is a last resort. Would they close the ISK faucet, active money supply would go down because people are leaving. So they can’t do that, because it doesn’t look nice on the MER and it can create a chain reaction of players leaving. Instead they’ve chosen to throw every last bit of balance off board. Time will tell wether it was a smart move or not.
I’m close to simply calling you a liar at this point.
418 Trillion. ISK faucets were 418 Trillion greater than ISK sinks in 2017. That is 0.418 Quadrillion or roughly 40% of the current overall money supply.
Try using different techniques of clouding the truth. Fake data, compare things that cannot be compared, semi-cleverly try people to follow your mix-ups of categories. It doesn’t help. It doesn’t change the facts. No one is stupid enough to believe you anymore.
I have to apologize though. Somewhere else I said you don’t understand anything about economy. Well, that is obviously not true. If you learned only one thing, than it is how to twist facts, using different strategies to lie around them, just like economists in the real world do. Bravo. You know, the problem is just, that people here aren’t a bunch of morons. Go back to tricking elderly people out of their hard earned pension, because that is exactly what people like you “contribute” to this world. This is not the place where you will find success with your lies.
If something is sold 3 times it is in there 3 times.
Market trade value is kind of a useless number. When we look at say GDP we look at final goods and services. We don’t start adding up the value at each stage for precisely this reason.
And skill injectors fail because that is not completely the case.
Yes I know, which is why I set the price at 3.6 million.
That is irrelevant to converting things over into a numeraire good for the purpose of calculations.
Again, I am not denying they are in there. I am denying they are exactly like PLEX, extractors and skins…because they aren’t. All of those items can be bought for just PLEX (or money). That is not true for injectors. They cannot be bought for JUST PLEX or JUST money.
Fuel blocks which get consumed. Do you even play? Lots of stuff gets consumed. Lots of stuff.
Even when you make a ship or ammo or whatever, you will lose a percentage of the minerals if you reprocess them.
Read it again, I said financial crisis. During the Great Depression not a single bank in Canada failed. In the U.S. thousands failed…because the U.S. had stupid laws regarding banks.
Yes it has. There was an actual nerf to the combat efficacy of fighters.
What:
Light Fighters (Space Superiority): No Change
Light Fighters (Attack): 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Heavy Rocket Salvo damage (was 20%)
Support Fighters: No Change
Heavy Fighters (Heavy Attack): No Change (was 10% reduction to Basic Attack and Torpedo Salvo damage)
Heavy Fighters (Long Range Attack): 20% reduction to Basic Attack damage (was 30%)
Heavy Fighters (Shadow): No Change
NPC Fighter Aggression: No Change (was +15%)
We are working on changes to Anomalies that will reduce the effectiveness of Carriers and Supercarriers. These changes will be announced at a later date.
As for the more recent NPC bounties…yeah, we often see an increase towards the end of the year. If that increase continues then there may be something else going on that warrants another look at bounties, anomalies, etc.
What do you think Goons have done in Delve? Why else are their numbers so impressive? Because the “transformed nature into at least a hospitable, if not appealing place.”
People usually develop currency on their own. If CCP didn’t create one it is entirely possible players might have. The origins of currency is usually along the lines of finding a commodity that has little intrinsic value and can be used easily for money. Gold coins for example, they are small, light, and can be stamped and decorated so that “shaving” them is hard to do. One could use other goods too like shells, or blankets or even something like a given weight of rice. In prisons cigarettes are often used as currency, etc.
We already have that to some extent with PLEX and LP. PLEX can be traded and used to buy stuff and exchanged for ISK. LP is more like a corporate script. As for adding regional currencies…Good God why? Of course, I suppose it might make Goons think twice about ratting…but then do you really want them mining more?
Yes, and with the nerf those active ISK deltas returned largely to their historical pattern. Could it be that people subbed once the changes were noted with the idea that they could PLEX their accounts with their carriers and supers very easily? If you are making 150 million ISK/hour in a carrier or super…ratting for 10 hours means you get to play EVE again with now actual RL currency outlay and you get all the benefits of being Omega.
And you earlier focused on PLEX. I have argued PLEX are a superior good, that is as a players income goes up by say 10% he might allocate 20% of his income. So if suddenly lots of players see a surge in income, then it is quite likely that PLEX prices would also start going up.
So I read that CCP wants to get more people into null and into PVP. But after playing for a week on Alpha here are my options:
Combat sites up to lvl 4, inlcuding Rogue Swarm sites.
Lvl 1 Mining Missions or inefficient Ore, Ice, Gas Mining
Mid level exploration sites. and WH sites.
Lvl 4 Distribution Missions
Corp assigns you to Low Level gang PVP, probably assigned tackle, since skills won’t allow high DPS mods and ships.
Corp assigns you to ratting to raise funds, you have access to standard corp ratting fits from frigate to BS.
The first few keeps you in high sec, only the last two put you in null, and only the last option is a realistic activity for a brand new player.
Does ccp just want more newbies ratting in Null to raise funds for other corps? Or just have them run lvl 4 combat missions in highsec endlessly?
