A Year Ago I Was Ridiculed For Suggesting BCs For Alphas

Unfortunately no.

The data at EVE Offline is PCU, not average players online. Yes, it has gone down, but again, number of players is not the issue so much as what is going on in the real economy.

In an economy there is the real economy–i.e. the goods and services we buy, and there is the nominal which is the real side denominated in current currency. We care more about the real side. Money is not really all that terrible important other than as a facilitator of transactions, but in the end we care about the stuff we can obtain via our economic activities, food, water, shelter, medical care, entertainment, etc. In game we care about ships, ammo, skill books, etc. We engage in various activites to obtain ISK not necessarily because we love those activities, but because we want the ISK we get will allow us to buy.

So, if ISK is going up, but the real economy is going up faster and nothing else changes (yes, a heroic assumption, but we have to do this otherwise we can’t work through these things logically…think of this assumption as like a partial derivative from calculus) then we have deflation. If the reverse is true we have inflation. Too much of either is bad. Too much inflation can lead to hyperinflation where trust in the value of the currency is completely gone and there is literally no investment–i.e. eventually GDP will collapse as it did in places like Germany prior to WWII. Too much deflation and consumption spending collapses as holding cash actually has a positive return–i.e. stuffing it in your mattress and not spending it means you can buy more stuff tomorrow, so you have less incentive to spend, the higher deflation the greater the incentive to not spend. As consumption spending falls, GDP again collapses.

Now an economy can handle “some” inflation or deflation. “Too much” of either is bad. CCP keeps an eye on these things. If they think it is getting to high they intervene. The last time they intervened was in 2017 when in one month the money supply grew at a staggering 64 trillion ISK in one month. Of course the ironic thing is the reaction for the economic ignoramii on the forums was pure unadulterated rage because CCP nerfed carrier and super ratting. Too some extent I understand the rage in that it reduced the overall combat efficiency of carriers and supers, but still it was probably a good decisions…although I had hoped CCP would revisit it and change how carriers/supers could make ISK in anomalies/ratting and return them to their combat efficacy vis-a-vis other player controlled ships. If you find that thread on the old forums you’ll see my posts on this making pretty much this point.

Another factor to consider is that our wallets are not like bank accounts IRL. EVEN IF there is a monetary multiplier, it does not work in EVE. Nobody is loaning out the ISK in our wallets generally speaking. There is a stunted and limited bond market in the game, but it is not like what we have IRL (look at the overnight paper market it is trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars in loans, many of which mature literally overnight, and it is enormous…huge, fecking huge). So if IRL we increased the money supply by say 500 billion by giving that money to banks, and there is a 10% reserve requirement then the money multiplier is 10 and we should see 5 trillion in new money. That simply cannot happen in EVE. At all. Ever.

The only different conclusions is that players are individually getting more ISK. But again, that is not so much of an issue for things like inflation/deflation. It is not the amount of money/person but money vis-a-vis the real economy. Inflation is caused by the money supply growing too fast. Inflation is not caused by CCP tweaking an in game item and making it more desirable. That is a shift in demand, not a monetary issue.

In looking at the various price indices, which really are not meant to capture inflation per se[1], there is little indication of overall inflation. In fact, until relatively recently the trend for the CPI measure was generally downwards and/or flat this would indicate that overall we have deflation not inflation. So no, I disagree, I see no reason to change my conclusions based on the number of people in game.

[1] Price indices are actually an attempt to put an upper bound on what is known as a Cost of Living Index. However, those indices are not observable in that such an index would also include both substitution and income effects from price changes. To see this we’d need to know the consumer’s welfare function which even consumers themselves would have a hard time articulating. As such price indices are an approximation and usually in the sense of providing an upper bound on the cost of living. They are not, as such, a direct measure of inflation.

Inflation is more, in practice, than just how much isk exists vs how much is sunk.

It also involves how much of that isk is actually circulating, rather than sitting in stockpiles.


For all we know, Goons are buying PLEX with their isk.

Owing to how PLEX are now held-transferred via PLEX-Vault, it is not represented in import/export/production etc figures.

If the excess isk introduction is not introduced into the market, the markets will not reflect the actual pool of isk in the game, creating the appearance of less actual isk ingame than there is.

ISK is produced with player activity over time, as are any products. ISK is closer to medieval silver coins than it is to nowadays currencies. ISK faucets are much larger than ISK sinks, despite the fact that 27 Trillion active ISK left the game in November 2017 alone, as you can see in the MER.

Look at Top Sinks and Faucets and you’ll find that daily bounties were roughly 1T ISK between January 2015 and January 2016. In 2017 it peaked at more than 2.2T each day in March and June and after having a temporary low with 1.6T daily in August, it is going up towards 2T again. Everything else more or less stayed the same.

Currently we have upwards of 1100 Trillion active ISK in the game. The chance for each one ISK to change hands within 30 given days is around 80% at the moment, which you can quickly verify when comparing it to the total market trade value per region which should be somewhere between 800 and 900 Trillion (fixed) (too lazy to count right now) for 30 days. Personally, in the specific context of EVE, I think that is a low ISK velocity. Now look at the market volume of PLEX, Skill Extractors and Skill Injectors and find that they make close to 50% of the general market volume. None of the 3 aforementioned come from player time spend actively in-game, but from real money spent on PLEX, Subscriptions or Extractors. Real money is usually acquired by working in real life, rather than working in EVE PvE.

This leads to interesting questions regarding the concept of inflation in EVE. If we can ignore our real life knowledge for a bit, because ISK isn’t the compareable to real world money, we could come to the conclusion that there is actually an inflation in PvE activity spend in EVE. In other words: you get less and less PLEX for an hour of work in EVE than you get for an hour of work in real life - generally speaking. Reformulated, you will need to spend more and more time working in EVE to finance your game time.

Now, just in case, someone could ask how bounties are a problem in this context, as the montly influx of bounties are much lower than the monthly market volume of PLEX, Extractors and Injectors and thereby can’t have a large influence on it, right? No. The danger here is to confuse ISK being spend with ISK leaving the game. Apart from transaction taxes, ISK spend on the market stay in the game. You can see the ever constant growth of money supply in the MER, despite a lower number of players nowadays as @KaarBaak pointed out. A lower number of players should mean a lower amount of real world PLEX sales, but also less demand for PLEX in-game. My suspicion is that the in-game PLEX market in terms of traded units didn’t go down and that Extractors are not the only reason for that. More precisely, I assume, yes assume, that the average number of PLEX’ed alt accounts per player has risen. CCP published some data about that, but I’d be careful with that, since it touches core business operations of the company and could be somewhat cloudy on purpose. So, someone with long term experience in the PLEX market should tell us if the volume in units, not ISK, has risen or fallen or is stable, when player numbers went down.

With rising volume of active ISK, we have more and more money to be spend on PLEX and PLEX-related-items. Even if we assume that real money PLEX sales by CCP and the demand for PLEX in game kept the same, basically lower playerbase and introduction of Skill Extractors neutralizing each others effects, it would still mean we have more ISK per PLEX in game now, than we had before.

To repeat: PLEX, Extractors and Injectors are values that are being added into the game economy with real money and they make for almost 50% of the overall in-game market volume in EVE. In this huge segment we already have ISK aka PvE gametime inflation.

From that you can look at the rest of the market volume, minus Officer Effects and Blue Loot, which are ressources allocated through Mining, Salvaging, PI, Harbesting, PvE Loot and 2nd, 3rd, 4th tier products build from them. In November we had Minerals being mined (aside from Moon minerals), being estimated at 50 Trillion ISK and around 115 Trillion worth of end-products being build.

Now it gets a bit more complex, since ISK and produced items are both come into existence through in-game work, but “50 Trillion in minerals” is still a number of minerals and not 50 Trillion ISK coming into the game. 115 Trillion in end-products possibly already include a major part of the 50 Trillion that have been mined, everything that hasn’t been stockpiled, destroyed or left the game with a player. For ISK there are ISK-sinks for other products there is destruction. Destruction seems to be somewhere around 35 Trillion in November 2017, but that means 35 Trillion in products, not ISK, or products that could potentially be sold for 35 Trillion ISK.

115 Trillion produced minus 35 Trillion destroyed, leaves us with 80 Trillion (plusminus 5-10 Trillion or so) in products added to the game in November on top of the unknown number of stockpiles. A good amount of that months PI and Salvage will already be in that number, not loot in the form of green/blue/purple items though.

Now watch out for another possible misunderstanding. If these 80 Trillion in products would be sold on the market and appear in the overall market volume, it doesn’t mean they’re out of the game. They still exist and they still can be bought and sold in any upcoming month.

Remember the total market volume and that we have roughly 400-500 Trillion still unaccounted for? That’s mostly products, item-loot and consumables. The monthly ∆ of production over destruction makes for at least 15% of the non-plex-related overall market volume per month. If the market volume stays the same, it means that after 6-7 months the stockpiles in products cover for this entire part of the market volume.

It means a lot of stuff is either not traded, but stays with the player, be it in stockpiles, as a useful item or just trash that fills the hangars. If everyone who produced something would sell it, the markets would be overflooded completely.

Now let’s assume 80% of ISK and end-products that are not either sunk by game mechanics or destroyed, leave the game with players leaving the game each month, because the numbers for ISK seem to indicate that.

Even if that were true every month, it would still leave us with more and more ISK, more and more end-products in the game, but then again also fewer players.

In the end it means the in-game economy is only not breaking apart due to players leaving the game with their ISK and assets. Still there is an inflation of in-game work, both for creating ISK and for creating end-products. In-game work to create end-products is more dependant on ISK-work, than the other way around, due to NPC taxes, the necessity to go through ISK to buy PLEX in-game and so on.

Until now I have spoken in averages, but if you look at production, you’ll quickly realize that it means only highly specialized industrials will be able to make profits. Highly specialized includes the necessity to operate relatively safely and efficiently, in other words, aligned to a powerblock. The introduction of Citadels made it possible for powerful groups to gain a decisive advantage over any competition in Highsec. The same goes for ISK-related game work. The higher the individual ratio of profits/risk, the less one will be subject to the inflation of in-game work vs. real life work.

In other words: everyone outside of Nullsec Bounty paradise suffers tremendously from the crazy amounts of bounties being made there. The same for mining, the same for every producer who isn’t aligned with a powerblock.

Finally you can say that the EVE economy still holds up for two reasons:

  1. Players leaving the game with their ISK and assets
  2. More and more of the less remaining players are forced to buy PLEX or spend more time doing PvE work because of the increasing pressure on in-game work outside of Null. Which could have negative impact on their long-term commitment to a game that isn’t committed equally to them.

I will conclude that both are tendencies, which simply cannot be healthy for any game.
It doesn’t mean that EVE will fall apart, but there will be a natural limit of how many players can be digested and shat out by game mechanics.

Reducing the ISK and Mineral Faucet in Null now, might be too late or not enough, but it certainly would lower the pressure to do more PvE work and leaves more time for conflicts.

p.s. For everyone who wants to leave the game with a bang, it means to sell all your stuff, really everything and buy PLEX from it. Then leave.

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Is is kind of like commodity backed money in that the commodity backing it is our time. Much like how bitcoin is kind of backed by electricity.

You should look more closely or download the raw data.

Yes, ISK from bounties went up, but so did sinks.

In looking at the total ISK supply in the raw data and looking at day-over-day changes we see that in 2015 these day-over-day changes had 115 days where the change was negative adding up to -47.2 trillion ISK. Jumping to 2017 we see there are 147 such days with a total of nearly -243 trillion ISK.

Also, in looking at the time series for ISK sinks the ISK sinks have increased as well. Looking at Transactions fees in 2015 we see that they were at -49.4 trillion ISK, jumping to 2017 they are now -131.6 tirrlion ISK. Brokers fees went from -35 trillion to nearly -139 trillion. Looking at manufacturing, LP Store, transaction fees, and in 2015 had a value of -184 trillion ISK and -392 trillion ISK in 2017.

The net results in terms of the money supply can be seen in this table I put together,

growthrateISK_v2

In terms of the growth of overall ISK it has not been that much out of line with the past. In terms of percentages it is on the low side.

Note: 2014 is odd in that compared to the surrounding years it has considerably more “negative” day-over-day changes.

I’m sorry, but what? The trade value for December for all of New Eden was over 981 trillion. Did you mean to type trillion but type “billion” by mistake?

ISK velocity shifted upwards in early 2016 dropped off and then went up again. For 2017 it has been between 0.8 and 0.7 generally. In 2015 it was mostly between 0.5 and 0.4.

On what are you basing this? This nowhere in the MERs that I could find.

Why? Commodity backed currencies used to be a Thing™ and inflation worked much like it does now except instead of the government controlling the money supply it was based on how much or little of the commodity that backed the currency was found. Hit upon a region with lots of gold or silver and you get inflation. Mine out a few such regions and production falls you get deflation.

Except that CCP has added things like clothing, skins, and so forth that people buy with PLEX. PLEX they either buy with RL currency or ISK. This increases the demand for PLEX meaning there would be more PLEX bought, all other things considered.

That is indeed possible or part of the story. It is also possible that with more and more skins that the demand for PLEX is rising enough to offset the loss of players.

They can be bought and sold in the same month.

What? How are you determining this?

As for the rest of your post you have a ton of assumptions and speculation…but seriously…try to look at the raw data…

I’m not against looking for day-over-day changes, but as you pick them, they only tell part of the story. It is surely interesting to see these numbers though, as they seem to strengthen the notion that there is too much ISK in the game. I will trust you on the numbers, so for 2017 we had 147 days where the change was negative for a total of -234 Trillion ISK on these days. And yet we end up with a growth in money supply in the end. It tells us that the influx of ISK was even higher than that. We should probably take a deeper look at ISK becoming active. We’ve learned from the Nov17 MER that around 27 Trillion went inactive that month alone.

It could very well be that the relatively slow or average growth in money supply is heavily influenced by lots of ISK getting passive over the year. Let’s quickly check that for 2017. According to the MER, active ISK Delta from Accounts coming and leaving (incl. GM actions):
Jan17: –60.7 Tril
Feb17: –35.6 Tril
Mar17: –5.1 Tril
Apr17: –40.8 Tril
May17: +15.4 Tril
Jun1: –57.1 Tril
Jul17: –43.4 Tril
Aug17: –27 Tril
Sep17: –20.3 Tril
Oct17: +7.3 Tril
Nov17: –27.7 Tril
Dec17: + 1.8 Tril

Wow. Do you see what I see? Over the course of the year 2017 we had ISK leaving the game with players vs. ISK coming back with players as a negative result of the insane amount of nearly 297 Trillion ISK.

W.T.F. This says a lot. End of December 2017 there were 1139 Trillion active ISK in the game, while End of December 2016 it were only 1018 Trillion. Yet, there is a negative 297 Trillion balance from accounts coming back/leaving the game (and being banned). That means the result of ISK faucets vs. ISK sinks, if we exclude players leaving the game, would be 418 Trillion. ISK faucets – ISK sinks = 418 Trillion.

Bounties, Blue Loot, Officer Effects, Incursion Payouts, Insurance and other smaller ISK faucets were 418 Trillion larger than ISK sinks combined.

You were right and I’m happy that I took a closer look. Otherwise I would have totally missed that ISK sinks are totally dwarfed by the massive outflux of ISK only because players leave the game. This totally reinforces my assumptions from before.

Yes, I see that. But in the light of 418 Trillion leaving the game in 2017 that were counted as ISK sinks and aren’t actually sinks by game mechanics, but just players leaving the game, these numbers have to be seen in a totally different light. Plus the argument with less players being here, but still the money supply is growing.

If we hadn’t lost 418 Trillion ISK in 2017 with players leaving the game, the absolute ISK Growth would be 539 Trillion and we’d have a total money supply of 1557 Trillion now, which is a year-over-year growth of more than 50%.

Yes, thanks for pointing it out. Fixed.

A quick run through The Forge and Domain market histories. Look at PLEX/Extractors/Injector sales on the market per day, add it up for 30 days and base your data on that. The prices are pretty stable compared to many other commodities, so you can easily find a reasonable average with below 10% deviation. I said it is close to 50% of the market volume, but it might as well be 45% or something. The market volume for Injectors, Extractors and PLEX in The Forge alone allow for a conservative estimate of 350 Trillion market volume per month in that region for these 3 items, in reality it is probably higher. Plus Amarr, plus all the other regions. Even on the slowest days the market trade value in The Forge for these 3 commodities seems to never fall below an accumulated 10 Trillion/day, with the average being far higher than that.

Yes, I know. Inflation was a tool of choice for the government, for instance if they needed to go to war or if they had to pay war reparations. Or really in any other situation in which they deemed it necessary to redistribute wealth from the bottom to the top, because that’s the outcome of it (prices going up, but not the price for labour, meaning labour will stay cheap). They had to use it with care, because it might cause revolt or downfall because of mass pauperization, but it was quite useful for them. In a way that is one of the problems several countries of the European Union face now. Those who adapted the Euro as their currency have the problem, that they do not have this tool of monetary policies anymore, since it is in the hands of the European Central Bank and the more powerful partners in the EU.

For EVE, I was thinking like it at first and even wrote that ISK is closer to silver coins than to paper money of today. But, I am not really sure if it really is good to call it commodity backed, as time is not a commodity. More so, we have to think about in-game time for in-game work and real life work. If time was the commodity that backed the currency ISK, just like gold backed the English Pound, it would mean that for every ISK that exists, there need to be time locked in some vault. The thing with time is, that you usually can’t trade it back and there is no vault that can hold it down. In the other direction it is true though: for every ISK that exists, time has been spent to create it. But it is not backed by time, so inflation of ISK and end-products in EVE comes through devaluation of game-time compared to real life work time, either by massive changes in the PLEX economy (i.e. if PLEX demand in-game is significantly growing while PLEX purchases with real money are dropping) or developments in-game that cause a massive influx of ISK.

In order to see if that has any negative effect on the game, it might even suffice to know one more thing, that could be shown in the MERs: spread of wealth and development of that month-to-month and year-to-year. It is pretty safe to assume that the devision of rich and poor in EVE is drifting apart and from the bit of data that we have, it seems to happen in an extremely unhealthy way.

Not only for the fun of the game, but also for the EVE economy as a whole. Off-topic thought: I’ve never really grasped why the personal wallet is supposed to be a safe space.

I don’t have the precise data for SKINs, but from what I’ve seen so far, they are nowhere near the market volume in ISK/PLEX of Extractors. I would be surprised if they even hit a daily average of just 200 Billion.

Yes. The same month, the next month and every following month over and over again, until they are destroyed or leave the game with an account. They stay in the game unless one of that happens and if we get 80 Trillion in products each month, it means after a year we have 960 Trillion more in hangars than we had before. Taken that this doesn’t account for players leaving the game and as we’ve seen with ISK, this plays a huge role, so the actual number could as well be just 500 Trillion or less.

Still, we have larger and larger stashes of stuff and no fundamental growth in the playerbase, so we probably have far more than anyone could ever need for the next 10 years. Getting more players into EVE is one solution, massively increasing conflict the other. Or we sit on our hands and hope that more and more people leave the game, so they take their ISK and products with them.

That is total monthly market volume minus PLEX, Extractors,Injectors, which in no case make up for less than 400 Trillion per month for the entire Cluster, so if the actual overall monthly market Volume was closer to 1000 Trillion, then I’d correct to 500-600 Trillion being unaccounted for and those being end-products, ressources/mineables and consumables for the most part. The addtional 80 Trillion in products in one month stay in game for the future and if we have a volume of 500-600 Trillion in non-Plex-related trades, it means that most of the stuff just lays around in hangars.

im running epic arcs that will make me 2b+ isk each on 2 of my accounts that went alpha. find a non-elitest incursion fleet you can make another bill+ a day there, go into a wormhole or null and you can rail isk there.

yeah also a year ago just after the alpha release about that time there was an article on how great alpha was being implemented and in that dev blog was a nice little section on how they have plans to implement single account restrictions to Omegas. I should have saved that webpage via prtscn because in the span of about 3 months after I can no longer find that nice little quote of CCP shoving their head up their 3rd point of contact while trying to eat both feet at the same time.

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You were the one who picked 2015 and 2017. You just didn’t look very closely. Stop looking at the graphs, look at the raw data.

What? There is no basis for this. None, unless you want to argue there has always been too much ISK in the game, but then you have nothing to compare it too so it is kind of a pointless claim.

Oh FFS…part of the point was not to do that. Look CCP Quant puts together the MERs. He gives you some graphs, but they are not meant to be exhaustive. They just give you some glimpses into the in game economy. He also gives the raw data. It takes just 1-2 minutes to download. The spiffy stuff is in CSV files you can look at them in Excel or Google Sheets.

This is the second thread where people look at something and make statements that are not backed up by the acutal data. Yes, there is an increase in NPC bounties, but incursions, which are counted separately go down. Sinks go up, and overall the money supply is increase at a rate that is not out of line with history. Keeping in mind that in one month in 2017 we had an absolutely massive and unprecedented increase before CCP stepped in and squelched it. Taking that into consideration and 2017 doesn’t look like a massive increase in terms of ISK in the game.

And again…the comparison is not to players, but the real economy. What is going on in the real economy vis-a-vis the nominal side. That is where we’ll see inflation, deflation or nothing.

I spend my days squinting at graphs like this. Using various statistical models to look at graphs like this. And alot of these things most people might miss in just looking at the graph. The dramatic increase in the NPC bounties is obvious as it sets the max value in the graph. Noting what is going on in terms of incursions and sinks…that comes with experience. Most people miss it…unless you look at the raw data and look at it in different ways, like annually.

You can’t. And CCP probably won’t let you. That kind of thing would have to be at the most granular level–i.e. account level data. Maybe if you moved to Iceland and begged CCP and signed an NDA…maybe, but I’m guessing they’d still ignore you.

Considering the overall money supply is now over 1 quadrillion ISK, that is not that insane.

But that is like excluding night and pretending we only had daylight hours. People leave the game all the time and unless we want deflation and possibly a collapse of the in game economy, ISK growth needs to factor this in.

Seriously you are just adding nonsensical numbers together hoping that really big number scare people.

If I hadn’t picked the wrong Lotto numbers I’d be rich. This kind of argument is nonsense. It is taking into account data that might have occurred, but didn’t. Who cares.

I am still not clear here. Are you taking the data from the in-game market window and using that? I don’t think that data represents sales per day. Or if it does…holy crap CCP Is rolling in some serious amounts of major RL ISK. Jita alone would suggest around $2 million/month. And that isn’t counting the PLEX that never hit the in-game market. After all, some people may very well buy PLEX via a credit card then go buy things like skins, etc.

And injectors are created in game. You don’t buy them from out of game as you are suggesting.

Still adding up both PLEX and skill extractors and assuming the quantity number is the number sold, it is about a third of the Forge market. Not sure you are going to get closer to 50%.

For that to happen there would need to be more players coming into the game and be online.
On Jan 4, 2014, 48k chars were online. On Jan 4, 2015, 44k chars were online. On Jan 4, 2016, 32k chars were online. On Jan 4, 2017, 33k chars were online. Go figure.

No, I did. I just decided that for the sake of this discussion I find month-over-month and yaer-over-year changes much more important than what you did. You looked at the number of days in both years which yielded a negative result in money supply, but you forgot to ask why it happens and if it has any significance. That’s the outcome you get when you don’t see the woods because you look at a tree.

Yes, we can. CCP publishes these numbers in the MER. In Nov17 27 Trillion ISK left the game with players leaving the game. And they have numbers for every month.

It is. 297 Trillion or 0.3 Quadrillion ISK leaving the game with player accounts coming and going. That is 25-30% of the overall current money supply.

No, I didn’t. You were the one who asked me to look deeper and I did. ISK faucets were 418 Trillion / 0.4 Quadrillion ISK greater than ISK sinks in 2017. Players leaving the game is not an ISK sink. Of course it has to be shown in the total money supply, but if people ask if there is too much ISK coming into the game, they now have a number.

418 Trillion in 2017.

Yes, but PLEX are also used for speculation, so they could circulate for a while, driving the market volume up, before they are consumed. Somewhere on reddit you can find a link and explanation to CCPs business report and from what I remember PLEX/year were not as high as 20m.

Ah come one, at least make the effort to read correctly and not make me treat you like an idiot that needs to be taken by the hand in each little logical step. Injectors are RL-money related items, just like PLEX and Extractors. First, they consist of Extractors + SP. SP are created through game time, which is either bought with PLEX or with Subscription.

The lowest volume per day for these three combined amounts to 10 Trillion in The Forge. If the lowest would be average for the month, we’d end up with 300 Trillion for the Forge. 725 Trillion was the overall market volume for the Forge, so 300 Trillion would be above 41%. Now, 10 Trillion isn’t the daily average, it is the monthly low. There are days where the volume hits 14 Trillion, which would amount to 420 Trillion or nearly 58%. The truth is somewhere in between. From a quick scan I’d agree that it isn’t hitting the 50%, but it is close.

Right now I think it isn’t that important to find out wether it is 45 or 49%, but surely that should be done. What I found interesting about it is the fact that nearly half of the market volume is made up by three items, all of which are real-life-money connected. And of course, what this tells us about the part of the economy that is connected to production in game.

Just a short post to focus on the numbers for 2017.

ISK Faucets – ISK Sinks = 418 Trillion ISK.
ISK becoming active - ISK becoming inactive (with player accounts) = –297 Trillion ISK
Change in money supply = 121 Trillion ISK.

Market Volume for PLEX+Injectors+Extractors = nearly 50% of the overall Market Volume.
Market Volume for End-products, Ressources, Consumables, Loot = under 60% of the overall Market Volume.

Production - Destruction: well over 500 Trillion ISK in 2017.
Items leaving the game with players: unknown.

ISK are created with spending in-game time.
PLEX are created with spending real-life time (working, paying).

Conclusions:

  1. We have a massive Stream of ISK coming into the game. Faucets greatly overshadow Sinks.
  2. Even though 297 Trillion left the game with players, we have 121 Trillion more in money supply than last year. Less players have more money.
  3. The divide between the rich and poor in EVE is getting greater and greater.
  4. The massive ISK faucets, esp. Nullsec Bounties, are devalueing other forms of PvE and Production
  5. Nearly 50% of the total market volume consists of items that had to be paid with real life money at some point

Assumptions:

  1. 297 Trillion ISK leaving the game, could indicate that CCP is very active in banning botters.
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Why is very hard to answer from time series. Why is a behavioral question and time series aggregate and thus you lose sight of key elements of the data. Now panel data…but we don’t have that.

Again you are missing my point. Time series data is good for short term forecasting but kind terrible for answering behavioral questions. Again panel data would be awesome but that is confidential data.

No. The ISK faucet has to larger than the sink otherwise the “tub” would empty out causing deflation and economic collapse.

Then your claim of 50% is wildly over stated.

By this logic everything is a RL currency related item. :roll_eyes:

Oh calling somebody an idiot when you can’t even spell ‘on’.

Look I took the market data from the in game market window and for all of December for PLEX and Skill Extractors got nowhere near that much. Counting injectors makes as much sense as counting ishtars IMO. You could count skins and apparel. But I don’t believe the quantity number in the market window is the quantity sold, but that are currently on the market. Same goes for extractors. And skins and apparel.

Overall your posts just aren’t pointing to a problem. Just lots of big numbers, assumptions and speculation.

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No. Injectors are an in game item they cannot be bought for RL currency like PLEX and extractors (or skins and apparel). Counting injectors is a type of double counting as every injector was first an extractor. Further, you are wildly over-estimating the number of PLEX sold on the market, IMO.

So…the market value is 110% of the market value? Sure, whatever you say.

The amount of ISK entering the game is not out of line with history. We don’t know if income inequality in game is increasing or not. If anything PLEX may be helping this to some extent. There is no indications of overall in game inflation thus it is not clear that there is any devaluing going on. Your 50% number is made up out of whole clothe, IMO and contradictory. You tell us that supposedly somewhere on Reddit there is a report that says CCPs income from PLEX is under $20 million. Now you tell us that half of the 981 trillion market trade value is PLEX, extractors, and injectors. The latter should not be counted, IMO as they cannot be bought directly for RL currency.

  1. Market trade value for December was approximately 981 trillion.
  2. Lets say about 450 trillion is PLEX related.
  3. Dividing 450 trillion by 3.6 million (an overstated price of PLEX to give us a low end estimate–i.e. I am skewing this low on purpose) we get 125 million PLEX.[1]
  4. Dividing that by 15,400 (the largest bundle we can get PLEX from CCP) gives up 8,116 such bundles.
  5. Multiplying that by $500 (the 15,400 bundle sells for $499.99) we get just over $4 million.
  6. That suggest from PLEX CCP is getting in the neighborhood of $48 million/year.
  7. Even setting the PLEX price at 4 million we are talking about just under $44 million.
  8. Setting the price at 3.6 million ISK and fixing the $20 million/annually this would suggest that PLEX related items are about 19% of the market trade value.

[1] I skewed this high for two reasons. First is by low balling the number of PLEX on the market I am low balling the PLEX income estimate. Second, things like skins and extractors can only be bought with PLEX, but when going on the market people will usually sell them for more than just their PLEX value. So to translate this back into “all PLEX” I used a higher PLEX price estimate…which is largely a guesstimate.

You both said the faucet is larger than the sink… yet you are disagreeing… for literally saying the same thing.

But the conclusions are diametrically opposite. We either want modest inflation, neither inflation or deflation, some deflation and some inflation with both somewhat modest. We could have some extended modest deflation as well.

All other measures of inflation in the economy–i.e. actual prices, show little to no inflation in game.

This is an on-going meme that amazingly won’t die no matter how many MERs CCP Quant puts out. It is a text book example of belief persistence.

That can be:

  • Due to player attrition (both as delta isk and lack of market participants)
  • Due to ISK not being circulated on markets.
  • Due to a parallel increase in resource introduction.

Mumkay… whatever makes you feel better…

This wasn’t about any of the conclusions, he said “the faucet is bigger than the sink” and you said “no, the faucet is bigger than the sink.” So either you had a problem in reading, or in writing. But, if either of those were the case, when it was pointed out how silly you sound, you might have said either “yeah, I read that wrong” or “my bad I typed the wrong thing.” But, no, you instead doubled down to try to show how your clearly wrong statement was actually right.

Congratulations, you win the internet, here’s your crown. :crown:

P.S. The forums has this cool feature where it let’s you quote directly the one part of what someone said, so there isn’t any confusion about which part you are referring to. If you were addressing a conclusion, it would be more helpful to quote that, instead of one given “fact”.

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Okay, there has been a back and forth on this and Zluq is pushing the ZOMG INFLATION meme. I have been pointing out that inflation is not really an issue. The growth rate of ISK is down. The absolute growth in terms of ISK is within historical norms. Price indices are showing little to no inflation. There is no evidence of inflation.

You are jumping in at a single point and scoring a point. Well done at ignoring the on going conversation and the larger issue. :roll_eyes:

Okay…and…what?

The CPI has been more or less trending down or virtually flat since 2012…the ISK supply has been growing since then.

If people want to argue about ISK creation and problems…oaky. Maybe there are some problems. But. This. Is. Not. One. Of. Them.

In fact, the one time when the money supply showed absolutely massive growth for a single month…what happened? Anyone? Anyone know what CCP did? Let me give you all a hint, it was in May…there are a giant threadnaught about the “fix” CCP implemented.

Where was everyone who is worried about inflation then?

Here. let me give some more perspective on this.

How much has ISK grown in 2017? 121 Trillion ISK, right? How much did the ISK supply grow in May? Google is that away because I’m pretty sure none of you know the answer off the top your head. And that way are the MERs.

:roll_eyes:

No, I read the whole conversation, and mostly you are both making the same flaw in assuming the line from the financial statements refers to in-game PLEX. Maybe Icelandic GAAP is different from the rest of the world, but in-game PLEX should not legally be allowed to show on a financial statement, as CCP has no legal obligation involving it (if they turn off the servers and shut down the game, it just goes away, it has no financial value). You are both playing arm-chair-economist and don’t really understand the things you’re talking about.

So, as entertain as your banter is, I don’t care to join it. I just couldn’t resist my amusement when you literally argued agreeing with him.

You said:

He said:

You said:

If that banter that is basically, “It’s blue”, “no it isn’t, it’s blue”, has some deeper meaning to the conclusion, please enlighten the readers of this thread to exactly what in the part of his statement that you quoted, you were replying “no” to, and then backing up that “no” with the statement that the faucet has to be larger than the sink, which he had said.

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Alpha Injectors. The precedent has been set, and CCP is more than willing to lie to their customers and players. :wink:

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