Abyssal Space - I'm disappointed

Communications Center General Discussion
262

It’s not though.

Players were asking for procedurally generated group content that was more difficult than current missions. There have been lots of little differences in each players requests, but this was the common theme. You could probably take incursions style content and make it accessible from new mission agents and be done.

They got burners, which were a decent start, but they aren’t procedurally generated and ccp ignored players that wanted them as separate agents.

They got resource wars which was about mining, rewards are super bad and ‘group’ meant 3 people, AFTER we argued it up from 2! Sites were restricted, and could be either finished or half full before your fleet got there (seriously no one asked for site restrictions or pve based on mining).

Abysmal space is solo only and ■■■■■■■ instanced. The rats with in are a good start and it’s also good that it’s on demand, but everything else about abysmal space is not good. People play it as long as the payouts are high.

CCP haven’t really delivered what’s being asked for.

Mission running, incursions and anom ratting has pretty much the same issue. Most people have one ratting ship with a base fit that is slightly modified for damage types.

The only thing i can think of that doesn’t have this ‘issue’ is burners that have hugely different behaviours and damage types. Though they could all probably be done with a group using the same comp.

263

People always ask for stuff they think they want, just to get it and not use it. My favorite UX myth is about people not being able to tell you what they want..

Time and time again , game DEVs (not just CCP) try to give people what they want. It’s a whole lot of wasted time and effort. Incursions are a good example, people SAY they want group content, , CCP made incursions and people are still asking for group content while not running incursions (even after CCP tried to revamp the scout sites). MOST PVE added since 2009 has had the same response.

But old PVE keeps getting farmed, even though that older PVE is less lucrative than much of the newer stuff. It’s like CCP hit about a good recipe once, then spent the next 9 years adding ingredients that do’t improve the taste while steadfastly refusing to revisit the original recipe.

Turns out CCP develops just like my ex-wife cooks lol.

Mission running, incursions and anom ratting has pretty much the same issue. Most people have one ratting ship with a base fit that is slightly modified for damage types.

The only thing i can think of that doesn’t have this ‘issue’ is burners that have hugely different behaviours and damage types. Though they could all probably be done with a group using the same comp.

Some people like having one ship for a job. some people like to experiment. The Old PVE accomodates both.

The newer stuff gives you ONE way to do it and that’s it. That’s the whole point, good pve lets you choose, bad pve makes you do things one way only. CCP hasn’t made good PVE in more than a decade.

264

Incursions are run frequently. But it’s very exclusive.

People want to run incursions but either have to wait in a queue or weaker groups are out competed by stronger groups. THATS why they aren’t run more widely, and that’s why people want incursion like missions without exclusivity.

Missions are the highest paid pve in hi-sec. They aren’t interesting, they are just so easily farmable. I have actually fallen asleep a few times running missions, sometimes you don’t even lose your ship, you just wake up to an empty room.

There is only one optimum way to run missions, incursions and each burner too.

They don’t have timers that can kill you if you take too long and maybe that’s why players always make sure they are running the optimal fit rather than having fun with it. But it’s not strictly to do with the procedurally generated pve.

265

Incursions were run like crazy back when they were released,I remember going into sites with more pod pilot wrecks inside then rats on a grid.

After initial rush incursion systems were full of ppl 200-300-400 souls is systems show me a mission hub that had those number now or ever.

Null sec blocks noticed that ppl have fun and money while not under their boot and start crying faul and CCP listened and nerf them multiple times until null secers and their alts crawl back to their masters.

Nerf l4 missions by half and see what happens no one would touch them.

266

That’s not true at all. There are multiple good ways to run missions and anomalies.

There is a long history of videos and forum posts showing such, like the Russian guy who blitzed low sec PvP 4 missions with nagas and staggers (see his youtube vids , if you can stand k-pop music lol). Or loke the guy who showed that you can make good use from PvP 3 missions blitzing using ishtars, ravens and machariels.

Hell, right now there is a thread in the pve forum about using vedmaks for lvl4s.

Or like smartbombing anomalies. Or using well timed stealth bomber runs on those null anoms.

The old.pve lets you figure it out as you like, and lets you decide if you want max isk per hour, OR novelty/experimentation.

The newer stuff doesn’t let you do this as much or at all. The experimentation. With drifters (like that speed tanking cerb), ended when cop buffed drifters within a week or two of the guy posting the YouTube video. Experimentining in incurisions or burners does happen, but not often. And experimenting in the abyss is costly.

Another poster, yiole, made a post that describes what I’m trying to say much better. Cant li k it be a use I’m on a phone. But for some reason people want to ignore what visibly works in favor of this dream for some kind of advanced pve.

I think its just wishful thinking at best, and a waste of effort at worst.

267

They are still very popular. Check the MER. Wherever incursions are available, they are run. And entire communities have formed around incursions. But when i tried them, we had 5ish guys who were looking for some challenging/rewarding group pve. Now tell me what site a group of 5 people can do incursion wise?

Anyways,
Give me an agent where i can say ‘i have a fleet this big and we want this kind of difficulty/reward’ and i don’t have to worry about it being completed before we get there or half my fleet being blocked out by strangers.

There’s not. Out of all the ways you’ve mentioned and more, there is only one way that maximises isk/hour.

Players can experiment and take it easy because victory is assured, even with sub optimal comps.

You can do the same right now with L3 abysmal space. There’s hundreds of ways to run them. Even more with lower levels.

Let players have a pve challenge if they want one. Even if it means one comp reigns supreme. Challenges and more fun pve are not mutually exclusive. Just don’t make it solo only and ■■■■■■■ instanced!

268

agree i just remember them when they were healthier.

Scout sites if CCP ever do them properly because what they did to them cant be explained.

That a lot of conditioning to get you to do something,contesting another fleet is what makes you better(push towards elitism) or it gets you out of the way you are not kicked out of incursions not to mention there is not just one VG site or just one System or just one constellation to pick from.ppl dont like to lose or to get better but it is convenient to complain about it.
If i am to count INC shortcomings it would be scout sites that are a disgrace to developers lack of sites that dont Nightmare/Machariel/Vindicator.
Assault sites shortcomings.
Static spawns/spawning out of thin air.
Changes thru nerfs not a single one for betterment to gameplay.

Other ppl bothering me wouldn’t even be on secondary list.but that doesn’t mean that i am against 4-5-6 ppl content bring it on.

269

Fleet Abyss is coming. You get to choose the difficulty.

270

When i did scout sites they were meant for noobs in frigs.

But what if i have 5 vets looking for incursion style pve? This is my dilemma. The majority of hi sec groups are not big, they are just a few friends.

Ok, but us casuals just looking for something to do together pitted against blinged out faction battleships doesn’t fill me with enthusiasm.

Thats why it was so fun in the beginning. Strangers forming kitchen sink fleets. It wasn’t exclusive. I ran them in a phoon at first for god sakes.

Now no one would let you fleet up with a phoon.

Certainly sounds more interesting.

271

Remember that sad part is they were actually more fun than what they did to them now thay spawn fix of cruisers and frigs and are heavy on ECM so much so than NPC scram even drones group of 5 spend more time doing them than doing vanguard sites for less payment.

Completely agree there is no such content.closest is wasting time in scout sites or bashing pirate tower in a nestors and roaming around both contents are underdeveloped and abandoned nothing to mention of rewards.

272

The last few posts prove what I’m saying. CCP has spent a lot of time on various new PVE. People wanted group content, the got incursions and later Drifter Incursions. People wanted more challenging missions, they got Burner. People wanted small group PVE, CCP redid the scout sites. People wanted “dynamic and procedural” pve, they get Abyss.

And it’s not enough. It’s never enough, and it will never BE enough, because the truth is that the people asking either don’t really know what they want, or can’t be pleased with something no matter what CCP does.

Meanwhile other PVErs are finding ways to make existing PVE fun, like the Leshak guy in the PVE forum right now. But instead of adding more puzzle style PVE that creative folks could find a way to make work, it’s more of the “new age” stuff that does…not…work.

How many more Drifters, FOBs, Pirate Sotiyos, Covert Research Facititles, NPC Mining Operations, Resource Wars, etc etc have to happen before someone says “you know, this company made PVE that people are still doing like 15 years ago, MAYBE (just maybe) we should expand upon that kind of things instead of going down these rabbit holes”…

It’s like Walking in Stations (and making a whole new engine for all of it), Atmospheric flight, the DUST/EVE link and CCPs recent foray into VR. The folks at CCP want to innovate soooo much that the idea of repeating a successful thing from the past doesn’t occur to them. When CCP added missions like Dread Pirate Scarlet and NPC capitals to some anomalies, those things were very well received. but it’s almost like that kind of thing is, I don’t know, beneath them now.

Edit: Yay im home and can link stuff easier. Yiole said it better. I don’t agree with that poster about a lot of thing,s but this post is spot on.

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273

Yeah. We asked for apples and got oranges.

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274

No you didn’t. You got what you asked for, then later decided you didn’t want it that way. People move the goal posts all the time, and developers keep trying to give them what they want, even though it’s not really possible.

275

Jenna, you know me. When would i ever ask for mining pve missions, site restrictions or instances?

276

Not talking about those specific things, im talking about in general. CCP has tried (i thing within their abilities) to give people what they want PVE wise (imo instead of looking at what we really do, and expanding upon that).

It’s not like they are saying “screw you, we’ll make more missions and anoms and you’ll just have to get over it”. They are adding procedural this and dynamic that and smarter AI and group oriented stuff etc etc. And many times it falls flat. Do you know anyone who hunts Drifters, Tracks down FoBs to destroy, or intentionally hunts for NPC mining ops?

I sure don’t. and those Drifter/FOB/mining op npcs and structures give killmails, but zkill doesn’t show much action from them.

I say the same thing to “PVE Dreamers” that I said for years to WiS fanatics: How many years does CCP have to prove that they can’t give you what you want before you stop asking for it and start asking for something more realistic?

277

No we didn’t got what we asked for, CCP listen to CSM, CSM got what they asked for. CSM are not players representatives at all.

and when we asked for abyss mechanism in missions and exploration sites CCP told us that it would require all teams for such effort. If you half-ass pve content don’t expect players will like it. If they still want to catch that elusive “group pve content” they will fail again. People don’t do pve in groups and even if they want there are no restrictions cap on sites.

Even you run abyss AFAIK, I’ve always told you than a bit of randomness is good, because it won’t become stale so fast. What is wrong if that would be merged with current missions system? Reward are already there, they don’t have to be adjusted.

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278

Random spawns limit the amount of viable fits. You don’t want to refit for each darned spawn, so it will boil down to Fits #!, #2 and #3 and nothing else, as being too creatrive with your fit would slip you out of the random envelope.

The silliest thign is that in a world were the single most common complaint about missions is “there’s too few of them”, CCP has tried all the wrong solutions to all the wrong issues. For years, the issue was that missions had been hero-coded by hand by a small bunch of volunteer devs. Then all those devs left the company and then CCP decided to develop new mission building tools, all of them are tested as they go with new “showcase” content. But the problem is that the “showcase” content isn’t very popular and the excuse of “but we’re developing tools for future usage” is not going to save what’s left of the PvE crowd. Even when CCP thinks of actually doing more missiosn, they thinka about rebuildign the whole misison system, which would take more people and time than they’ve got.

Add a new misison with the new tools? Oh no, God forbid that. Coding a new AI like the one used at pirate shipyards (that paradygm of success :roll_eyes: ) looks awesome in your resume. Designing dungeons isn’t exactly thrilling and there’s a learning process involved in which your first dungeons wil be poor to bad and people will complain about them beign worse than “the old ones”. And what’s worse: it’s a neverending task. You can’t just assemble a AGILE team for it and call it a day in a few months; oh no, you must devote a specialyzed team (if even just three guys) to it forever and ever. So they better enjoy level designing for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Yet on the toher hand, people has been running the same missions for years. Usually takes about a couple years to burn out after seeing the same faces so many long, but a larger pool of missiosn would also lengthen the time needed to grow tired of seeing the same faces.

And, once new missions stabylized the situation, maybe CCP could begin considering adding PvE-exclusive rewards. Like my concept of “space cottages” (player houses), which accidentally could provide a hook for whales. Adding stuff worth grinding for is the easiest carrot-and-stick reward to keep those people interested in PvE alone (and no, ship SKINs don’t cut it).

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279

problem with randomize abyss is that you have to tank for all kind of damage incoming and you can’t leave the pocket when your fit fails, missions are rats specific, more than one “proper” fit, would work.

I wasn’t thinking about FOBs but rather random spawns like in AP. We don’t need pvp like rats, if we want pvp then we would pvp with other people instead shooting “pvp style rats”. Adding new mission to the pool won’t solve staleness. It would be still scripted event. I disagree that current mission pool take years to burn, week more likely if you are using agent from the same station.

280

You’re right. People did keep asking for this, and i was telling them no one would engage with it. I said it’d be interesting for all of 5 minutes. The same as every moron asking for npc’s fighting eachother in the hopes they’ll stumble across a great battle. It’d be interesting for all of 5 minutes.

Clearly they do though.

In missions and anoms rats are weak enough that coordinated fire can be inefficient unless you’re a bunch of alphas. But where it makes more sense, like incursions and against sleepers, they are done in groups.

281

This isn’t because of the randomness.

Mission runners don’t change their fits except for changing damage types. Anom runners don’t change their fits. Wh anom runners don’t change their fits. Incursions runners don’t change their fits.

The randomess isn’t a problem. It’s actually making things more interesting.

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