(Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict

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181

No. We owe you absolutely nothing, for as long as you are holding even one of ours in bondage, there is nothing done to you that isn’t justified, up to and including burning every world you hold. Your crime is beyond measure. It is beyond justice. It’s beyond repayment. It is beyond forgiveness and it is beyond atrocity.

If we allow you to simply get away with it if you release all of our people, you will have received a mercy and a concession unprecedented in human history for its benevolence.

Get your head out of your arse, aldieboo. It’s messing up your hair.

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182

Having read this thread, I tend to agree with @Aldrith_Shutaq : the voices we hear the most are the one of those that stay in their point of view.

Once again, I’m fairly new to the IGS and only recently took an interest in the rest of the cluster and I may not be an historian or a diplomat, but the kyonoke plague made me realise that we are all in the same basket and that there is greater threat to the cluster than the rivalry between empires.
And my post a few weeks ago WAS oriented and not neutral like I should have done it.

Personally, I would agree to a bargain with this concession, because from the amarrians’ point of view it is a HUGE things. Even if for the minmatars it is “normal”.
In counterpart,

  • the minmatars should stop actively attacking the empire
  • let the amarrians have slaves because like this thread have proven it again, the amarrs are not ready to do so and it would harm their culture deeply, too quickly, therefore not ending anything (not speaking that except by a full scale invasion not doable, there is no way to make the end of slavery apart)
  • finally allow their preacher to preach, for the minmatars it would be an actual effort., but no protection guaranteed for the amarr’s specifically, even if I would agree that creating “neutral preaching zones” protecting ALL cults preaching in them would be agreeable.

What I see from this is that both parties do a huge effort, not in the eye of the other side, but on their side.
the freedom of the minmatars would also mean the end of the main reason of the rivalry between the two empires. The direct conclusion of this, on my opinion, would be a real start of discussion (not just some capsuleers but the actuals governments doing more together than minimal polite responses.)

Of course this could be a little hypocrite because it sound a little bit like “I want minmatars’ freedom, the others can stay slaves”.

But, on my opinion, it is only a first step.

why?

because I would propose a more “long terme” agreement, allow free trade between the two.

What if the republic would, with the help of the federation, create labor robots that would be sold to the amarrians, why not in exchange for slaves? therefore they could release them. Of course that would work only if Amarr stop making new slaves that is not also a empire’s citizen (after all, you can do whatever you want to your people).

Once again, what I see from this is that each part is not asked to change how it work inside itself, but how it work with the rest of the cluster.

I’ll take the reclaiming as the main example: in the situation I propose, I do not propose the end of the reclaiming. Amarr can still “bring every men and women under the light of god” but not by force. If one day Amarr come in a state that they dominate the whole cluster by force without being worried, then it would mean that a vast majority of the cluster think that way.
Even if I would like not see this futur happen, I will defend the possibility of it. It’s the responsibility of those who don’t want to see it happen, to not let it happen.
But in the meantime, the minmatars would be free and could find other peaceful ways.

My point being : if everyone is saying “let’s crush the neighbours before they crush us” well, one day we will destroy everything…

With the kyonoke plague, we know that some parties are actively creating and field testing efficient ways to kill huge parts of populations rapidly. Imagine the ravages if the kyonoke outbreak would have been if done by air dispersions on entire planets ?

sorry for the long post, I hope it is “neutral” and will help :confused:

183

Alright, which ones? All the Minmatar they currently have? Half? A third? Where do you draw the line? Who gets to keep slaves and who doesn’t? What qualifies one to be slave or spares one from being one? Do the Amarr get to continue acquiring slaves or practice generational slavery? What disincentives are there to having slaves or is it up to each Amarrian individual?

I know that this is only a single point of the few you’ve made, but I thought it was a good starting point for me to address your post.

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184

I see the future now.

YC 1019, the Ni-Kunni Rebellion. Throwing off the shackles of their Minmatar masters, the Ni-Kunni people rise up in a holy war, driving the Minmatar out of Aridia and surrounding regions, and establishing the Ni-Kunni Hegemony. This failure of foreign policy comes as a great shock to the Minmatar political classes, who had long thought it was their destiny to rule half the cluster.
YC 1119, the discovery of an enclave of True Amarr people causes consternation in the upper echelons of the Minmatar government, who had thought the True Amarr long extinct. The Ni-Kunni Hegemony launches a daring raid upon the Minmatar Republic, obliterating dozens of inhabited worlds in an operation to rescue the True Amarr.

Is that the future that you wish for ?

185

Your bait game is weak, when you step out of your gibberish comfort zone. It’d help if you left the gibberish behind.

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186

You’re comfortable with avenging atrocity with atrocity. Burning all enemy worlds and all that.

Which means you are comfortable with breeding the revenge for those atrocities.

Meaning you’re comfortable with trillions of future Minmatar women and children civilians being obliterated by the Ni-Kunni space-to-surface heavy weaponry.

Alrighty then, magic tattoo lady.

187

Even weaker. This the best you got?

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188

No.

But it’s the best you deserve. Hurrr.

189

I thought I covered it earlier. All slaves remain slaves, all newborns become free. In a hundred years or so the problem will have solved itself, regardless of the vicissitudes of human ethics and politics.

There are serious downsides to this solution, agreed, but the saving grace of it is that nobody takes anything from anyone and there is a definite hard deadline on the problem - the death of the last slave. By that deadline the Amarr will have to have sorted out their economy and the Matari will have to be ready for the influx of potential new citizens.

Come on - this is a scenario that requires nothing more than changing a line in the law pertaining to slavery (the offspring of slaves don’t become slaves) and purchase of a ticket to Matari space when one of these newly freed children decides to leave home.

The only downside is that some people will have to stop treating other people as legal property and others will have to stop jilling themselves off to the thought of the wholesale destruction of inhabited worlds.

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190

I realize that’s your position Mr Tuulinen, but I’m really after Mr Fallanstar to state his position more clearly.

I certainly agree with you on that, neither outcome is desirable.

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191

The only downside? The only downside?!

Yes. Those who now suffer and rage against their chains and collars should be abandoned to make it easy upon those who enslave them! That is no downside, is it?

Morally bankrupt scum.

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192

I’m morally bankrupt? You’re the one who gets off on gigadeathcrime - or at least theatening it.

If you can point me to a morally clean solution, I’ll be the first to applaud - but I don’t think autistically screeching “Muh peeeeeeple” and changing nothing is a better solution. How many generations of slaves have lived and died in captivity already? If your war takes more than a generation to arrive, then my solution is already superior - and that’s without attempting to calculate how many Matari worlds would be lost in the conflagration of total war.

If you unify the Tribal Republic, condemn your actual people to lives that make those of my people look hedonistic and decadent, optimise every industry and resource and ante up every warm body and every flying hull then you STILL won’t be able to take down the Golden Fleet - for how long?

Total War is a bad idea, Miz. It’s the worst idea, ever. It’s a worse idea than any hamfisted, back of a napkin, doodle from a foreigner who ought to know better than get involved.

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193

Really? And you were arguing your point so well, Mr Tuulinen.

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194

As opposed to autistically screeching about “Home” Pilot Tuulinen?

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195

Is there something I’m missing here? What does everyone have against people with autism?

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196

Sometimes a range of humane euthanasia options are the only recourse for those who present themselves as a potential burden to society for their genetic predisposition of being functionally unable to integrate within society.

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197

Alright then.

Consider this statement:

“It is better for one Minmatar to die than for one Minmatar to live as a slave.”

Would you agree or disagree?

  • I agree
  • I disagree

0 voters

Show results
198

I thought the big quotation was visible enough, I was talking about the minmatars’ one, all of them.
Of course it was only a draft, aren’t we here to discuss about it? for example, the idea of @Pieter_Tuulinen could work on my opinion.

199

If we apply this standard to this discussion, everyone seems to get off on the idea and threatening the Minmatar with extinction, including you.

That’s rich coming from people who cried about “muh homewooorld” for best part of 200 years. AND threatened the whole cluster with total war trying to claim it back.

Your solution is crap. You’re saying that it is better to submit to a tyrannic regime imposing terms on you that are grossly understated, just insulting and downright treading on our right to exist. If your people didn’t do this, don’t ask it from ours.

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200

She’s not wrong.

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