And now consider this statement
If one Minmatar dies during an operation to rescue 5 Minmatar from slavery then it was worth it.
And this statement:
If 10 Minmatar die during an operation to rescue 1 Minmatar from slavery then it was worth it.
And consider this statement as well:
If one Amarr dies during an operation to rescue 1 Minmatar from slavery then it was worth it.
Agree or disagree.
Option 3: I hate false dichotomies?
The principle has already been established that people like Miz and others are prepared to bomb inhabited worlds into barren rocks to âavenge historyâ.
Now we are haggling on the price.
Perhaps you can point out this âbig quotationâ in your post. I see you quoting Mr Shutaq, and some scattered words and phrases in quotes, but thatâs about it. From those I would have assumed *free all Minmatar but leave the non Minmatar as slaves," which sounded less like a plan and more like a hasty proposition.
I get that, so letâs work out the details. Thatâs the point of my reply. It was also to point out that letting the Amarr keep slaves isnât the cut-and-dry solution it may at first sound like.
Some of our best and brightest are social rejects due to their genetic disposition, would we have been further ahead to have euthanized them before they made their contributions to society based on their âpotential burden?â
I suppose there is always the independent capsuleer program for those âbest and brightestâ to post on IGS and be the Caldari Officers they always wanted to be, but could not â a lack of ability to grasp the basics of human social behaviours and cues like, âthe reason people insult you is not because they fear you but because they think youâre an impotent blowhard.â be damned.
Oddly I wasnât thinking of capsuleersâŚ
Well, we were talking about autism and genetic defects like extra chromosomes so I just assumed the State sent them all to join TEST alliance.
Oh I donât know. The Pendulum Pretense seems to be well stocked.
How is that humane?!
Itâs all a matter of perspective. Besides, who else would buy all the shield supers bpo otherwise?
Perhaps some of those poor souls just need to see a Brain Specialist. Condemning them to TEST seems soâŚ
And thus, we all keep buying bullets.
Nope. But those people in the Federation who believe everyone must (not just should) eventually be brought to believe in mob rule and anarchy? Yeah. Theyâre wrong to believe that anyone needs to be converted, and if they were to hold power for any extended period of time, theyâd probably foment a war.
In a theocracy, no religious mission can be a non-government organization. Even if their funding doesnât come directly from the government, their direction does, by virtue of the government being the doctrinal body that directs the faith. All clergy of the Amarr faith are, by definition, agents of the Throne.
It would, in fact, be just as much a form of cultural enslavement as the Reclaiming. The children should be raised by their families, as free citizens who can choose their own course in life. Well, as âfreeâ as anyone can really be in a society that has a top-down power structure where the populace is more rightly called âsubjectsâ than âcitizensâ.
And the adjusted methods will eventually reach the end of their usefulness. At some point, everyone who can be peacefully convinced will be. And then what? Back to bullets.
Oh my stars and garters, I think this whole thread paid for itself right there.
Youâve had time. Weâve seen where youâve put your effort.
What, you mean like a violent and bloody rebellion? Checked that box.
This is the basic problem, though, Aldrithâyouâre not. Thatâs what this whole thread is: an attempt to evade the consequences. You come into someoneâs home, beat them bloody, kidnap their children, and then say âok, letâs try to resolve this amicablyâ.
Amarr culture/law/faith says that responsibility for transgressions, and the restitution owed from them, is hereditary. Thatâs the basis for generational slavery: the children bear the burdens of their ancestorsâ sins. With this in mind, the current generation of Amarr is responsible for the actions of their forebears. To have the Amarr side saying âok, we might make a deal but it involves you giving up more just to get your stuff backâ reeks of insincerity and dishonesty.
It implies straight off that by Amarr standardsâby your own standardsâyouâre denying that anything that took place was a transgression. If there was a transgression, there should be restitution. If this has to be a matter of equal concession, then thereâs no restitution. And if thereâs no restitution, thereâs no admission of transgression. That means thereâs no basis to think the original action wonât be repeated, because clearly the act was ok, the problem only stems from âwe didnât manage to get away with it this timeâ.
It presents a prima facie image of deceit, of not negotiating in good faith. Itâs a problem. And itâs a problem thatâs only reinforced by the insistence that Amarr cultural material and agents of the Throne (see above) be allowed to continue compounding the original offense.
âI know I broke in and sodomized your wife, but if you want me to give back your kids, you need to agree that I can come back in and proposition them whenever I like.â
Itâs just crass. And itâs insulting, on the face of it.
I donât think anyone wants an all-out warânot even Mizâif thereâs another way to secure the freedom of our people without sacrificing more of them on the altar of âpatienceâ than we already have. Iâve advocated patience in the past. Iâm sure you remember that. But thereâs been no movement, nothing that can even be said to be movement toward movement. Thereâs no sign of even bad faith to hang that hat on, anymore. Patience has its limits.
If you truly want to heal old wounds, as you say, then you have to start off by acknowledging that those wounds are not equivalent, and both sides do not bear equal responsibility for the injuries in the first place. I respect that you see slavery as a blight and a wound upon the Empire as well⌠but that wound is self-inflicted.
So whatâs the way forward? As long as the Amarr cling to the concept of the Reclaiming, the mandate that all of humanity must be brought to God⌠how can we trust you? If we canât trust you, whither peace? I get that youâd like to base it all in realpolitik and say that there are economic and diplomatic foundations that can be laid, and Iâd love to agree⌠but the Empire, from our point of view, will always be negotiating with a dagger behind its back.
Kick a beast in the face, again and again, and itâs not going to trust you to pat its head. Itâs going to bite your hand off. Without cultural change, I just donât see how the Empire can ever be trusted to negotiate in good faith. Do you? Do you even see what Iâm saying about our perspective in this? How would you propose we overcome that obstacle?
Not necessarily, but yes. Consider it me resigning to the fact that if nothing breaks soon then nothing will change. Amarr society is set up to protect the status quo, as are societies in general. My point is that oppressive groups donât always know how theyâre being oppressive, or they invent comforting stories out of whole cloth to quell their misgivings about how theyâre treating a whole other group of people.
So no, Iâm not saying what I said out of nativity. Itâs simply recognizing historical precedent, and it may have to continue happening amongst the slave populations of Amarr until they gain their freedom down to the last person. This despite any decrees from the Amarrian throne, outside political pressure, or even all-out war.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing of the Republic since they are the ones with the track record of breaking treaties.
You have the unmitigated gall to attempt to lecture us on morality and interstellar law? Wow, thatâs breathtaking. Listen and listen well:
It was YOUR PEOPLE who crossed the stars, encountered my ancestors and decided they would be easy pickings for your twisted uses.
It was YOUR PEOPLE who attacked and invaded Minmatar worlds, unprovoked, and then systematically kidnapped, murdered, raped and enslaved my ancestors by the tens of millions.
It was YOUR PEOPLE who occupied Minmatar worlds for a thousand years and systematically attempted to wipe out our entire cultural and spiritual heritage replacing it with your own.
It is YOUR PEOPLE who, to this very day, carry out slave raids in Republic space using Imperial Navy warships in contravention of SIGNED TREATIES.
You slavers have over thousands of years demonstrated by your bellicose words and acts that it is YOU who cannot be trusted.
Look, I desire a true lasting peace between our people but not at the price your husband and the rest of the so-called progressives seem to be asking. I applaud his effort but, so long as the âreclaimingâ remains at the very heart of everything the Amarr do, there can be no peace. YOU are, and will always be, the greatest threat to humanityâs existence in the cluster.
I do hope youâre not trying to lump the Elder Fleet in under this umbrella. A fleet built by the Thukkers while they werenât part of the Republic, supported and defended by renegades and deserters hardly qualifies as an arm of âthe Republicâ.
I think theyâd be better categorized as âbadassesâ and âheroesâ, really.
You forgot the bit about glassing an entire planet because all their super-effective high technology and awesome military couldnât find one murderer while he was in hiding⌠Oh wait, my bad! They never even tried. âWhatâs that? One renegade slave ran away? Kill them all!â
Itâs how you know theyâre civilised and not savages.
Because ancient wisdom is clearly the best wisdom.