Rather puts Ms Del’thul’s comments about planet wrecking in perspective…
1 Like
Of course the Republic knew nothing, how silly of me.
1 Like
Yes, because when large groups of deserters up and, you know, desert from the Republic Fleet, they take the time to repaint the hull, right? I mean, everyone knows the Defiants made it abundantly clear their Hel wasn’t part of the Fleet anymore, didn’t they?
Besides, shouldn’t you be thanking the Elders for giving your God reason to restore Jamyl Sarum to this mortal coil, so she could be Empress and root out the blooder corruption at the very heights of the Empire?
3 Likes
Remember that time when a Tribal Chief was murdered in the Federation, and the murderer was arrested by Gallente police, and the Republic patiently waited for due legal process to be carried out according to Federal law ?
2 Likes
Does the Republic’s hypocrisy in this instance justify the past or current actions of the Amarr? Is that how it works?
Just say’n.
1 Like
Numbers.
The Republic is home to some 6.6 trillion Minmatar.
A slightly higher number of Minmatar live in the Federation. 7 trillion.
And there are something like 11 trillion Minmatar resident in the Amarr Empire.
So, with the objectives of:
A: eliminating enslavement of Minmatar within the Empire
B: moving as many of the former slaves to the Republic as possible
And considering that accommodating some 1Bn former slaves freed by the Empress Jamyl 1 placed considerable strain on Republic infrastructure and society.
The military option of attacking the Empire, and moving a number of people nearly twice the population of the Republic, and 10 thousand times larger than a number that placed great strain on the Republic, seems a bit on the difficult side.
And it would have to be done in a single lift, because there will not be a second opportunity.
If we assume the Amarr are as inhumanly cruel as some people would have you believe, and based on the known occurrences of slaves being massacred before they were picked up by Elder Fleet forces during the Elder Intrusion, then there will be plenty of Holders and others who would massacre potential enemy combatants before they could be picked up by Minmatar forces.
So, how many would be able to be picked up before word gets to the other worlds, and the massacres begin ?
Now, let us consider the logistics in terms of transport ships and their escorts that would be required for such an endeavour. It would be a fleet of enormous size, which would take many years to construct. Which seems quite impractical. And vulnerable to predation by the likes of Sansha’s Nation, who cannot be reasonably expected to just sit idle while such colossal endeavours are being undertaken.
So, let us say that the fleet has a 10% survival rate, and manages to lift 1 Tn Minmatar from the Amarr planets. This is still a number that is a thousand times larger than the number that strained services during Jamyl’s Emancipation.
Now then, the Amarr no longer hold any Minmatar slaves, so would the Minmatar stop at that ? Or would they enact reprisals against the 15 Tn Amarr citizens, the majority of whom did not own slaves ?
Let us assume a 1:1 ratio of reprisals. This means the escapade has resulted in the deaths of 20 Tn people (10Tn amarr, 10Tn minmatar), or something like 25% of the entire known population of the cluster.
Are the Gallente and Caldari going to stand by and watch as a quarter of humanity is obliterated ? I find that… unlikely.
3 Likes
I cannot agree more with you on this point.
That’s why we should stop talking about war and start thinking of a peaceful solution, even if not perfect or complete.
1 Like
Find us a Minmatar capsuleer willing to debate on this idea and we can at least try to come a hypothetical agreement.
2 Likes
did you read my post? was it close minded? I hope not, and if yes, I would like to know were ^^"
EDIT: And i’m minmatar, (even if raised in the federation ^^) once again, I may not have the best words, but I DO want to find a peaceful outcome
1 Like
Didn’t we find atleast some points we agreed on Aldrith?
3 Likes
We did, but you’ve been quite silent for a while.
2 Likes
Thats true, don’t believe finalized any hypothetical conclusions. Blame it on, heh… administrative matters I’ve been attending to.
3 Likes
Your post is premised on the idea that all those freed Minmatar would have to be moved. I don’t know if that’s entirely required, let alone reasonable. Freed Minmatar, acting as autonomous agents, may choose to stay in the Empire to make a life there and even contribute to the Amarr economy.
Having to move so many people en masse seems like a worst case scenario. Probably not the most likely either. The actions of reactionary groups not withstanding.
2 Likes
I was only examining the military option that several persons have suggested previously.
In that situation, they would have to be moved, if only because their world has probably been bombed and is no longer habitable.
2 Likes
Bloody hell, Arrendis. Keep the spin for capsuleer matters, yeah? Trying to pretend the Elder Fleet was somehow entirely surprising and unnoticed by people in charge is absolute tosh and nonsense. The Republic is entirely culpable for that action.
Spirits below, there’s no need to be deceitful and dishonest about any of this stuff. It was justified, entirely. There is nothing within the power of any nation that wouldn’t be entirely justified against the Amarr.
Bloody irony, peddling spin and technicality as an argument for being honest as a nation.
2 Likes
Well, if the Amarr are likely to start dropping rocks onto every square meter of habitable planets, and the Republic responds in kind, what sort of deterrent could be put in place to prevent it from happening at all?
1 Like
Hey, if Mitara can play that game to try to deflect, I can throw it right back at her.
Still waiting for Aldrith’s response, though. It’s almost like he’d rather posture than seriously discuss the issue.
2 Likes
Here we go.
Then you are blind.
I am, just not your definition of the consequences.
You are quite right: the people of the Empire will suffer for its mistakes for many generations, as they rightly should for failing their mandate to Reclaim the Minmatar so terribly. But that punishment is not going to come from the hands of the Minmatar alone; it comes from God. The Minmatar Rebellion is the single most horrific event in Imperial history, and we are still learning the lesson it taught. But learn we shall, and the wrongs of the past will be righted.
It is not insincere or dishonest to try to enlist the help of the Minmatar to help correct those mistakes. You, like all the rest, failed to actually look at my proposals, thinking them to be one-sided.
I offered the freedom of all Minmatar slaves. I requested in return the chance to conduct the Reclaiming in a better way, with closer national ties to help that happen. Several rejected that outright. That, Arrendis, is insincere and dishonesty, for these Minmatar say that the freedom of their enslaved kin is the greatest goal they could imagine, but are willing to do nothing to secure it but throw tantrums and occasionally throw a punch.
You explain to me how best to approach this, since I appear to be making a mistake by attempting to strike a reasonable deal.
Billions of dead Amarr in the Rebellion are not restitution enough? Billions that are added to at a steady trickle through terrorism or raids, or sometimes in great lurches such as during the Elder Invasion? We must suffer yet more? How else, and for how much longer? You tell me since you wish to dictate the terms.
There was a great transgression, but not the one that you think. Taking your people as slaves was not a transgression. Failing them once they were slave was, however. That failure led to the Rebellion, and where we are now. The restitution could be to relinquish responsibility of the rest of the Minmatar in return for a chance at redemption, but if no redemption through that act is offered, we may as well try as best we may with those we have not yet failed.
The offense was the abuse and exploitation of the Minmatar without regard for the God-given duty for their welfare and enlightenment. If the Empire had not failed so spectacularly, we would not be having this discussion; instead of at one another’s throats we would be side by side as brother and sister. But instead we are here.
It is fine if you dispute where the crime was, you are free to do so now, but we will not recognize the mandate to unite humanity under God as a crime. The means were a crime, not the intent.
This is a flat lie, or willful ignorance, as exhibited by others already. There are countless signs that the Empire is changing. Mercy, cooperation and goodwill shall replace malice, conquest and selfishness as motivators and methods for the Reclaiming. But it is not up to you to dictate how or at what rate that happens, and that is the true source of your frustration.
You are correct that they are not equivalent; for as many dead or tormented Amarr there are many more dead or suffering Minmatar. It is a poor shepherd that blames the flock when they stray, and poorer still when they cull the flock because they cannot control them. But the Empire of the past is not the Empire of today.
As for slavery, I do not see it as a blight by nature, but the methods and attitudes that make it so are still prevalent and need to be expunged. That aspect is indeed self-inflicted. But if that wound is our doing, then it is our duty alone to mend it. Lest you can be ready and willing to relieve the pressures of slavery on our economy and culture through peaceful cooperation, you can have no part in it.
We will never renounce the Reclaiming. Even if we have failed with the Minmatar for now, and they are utterly unwilling to hear the message, we must try. I am willing to accept that they may be the last group of people the Imperial Rite will be able to reach, but the message will inevitably get through. Faith in that eventuality is the reason why I am willing to renounce the methods of expedience that are war, conquest and slavery. Each were tools the Amarr used long in the past when their power was absolute, but that is no longer the case. God has sent many clear messages that they are not the path forward, and I intend to take heed. The rest of the Empire is coming to that conclusion as well, but as with all things, it will take time.
In the meantime, you may trust us through the concrete establishment of treaties. Say what you will about us, but you can rest assured we abide by the word of our Emperors and Empresses. CONCORD and the current order was built by Heideran VII, Doriam II stated his goodwill to the Republic many times over, Jamyl I tried her hand during her brief reign, and now Catiz I will surely guarantee our stance further. We will not destroy the Republic unless they attempt to destroy us, which they have come dangerously close to in the last decades. I started this thread as an attempt to stay that fate from coming to pass.
But you must stop thinking of the Reclaiming as a dagger behind our backs. The threat of war is the dagger behind our backs, but unity under God is a gift we offer freely to you and the rest of the cluster openly. I am willing to drop the dagger, as are many of my countrymen. But you must also make sure we are not forced to trade the dagger for a sword instead.
I see your perspective entirely, and I also see the potential for peace. But again, the Reclaiming is not an obstacle. Violence is the obstacle.
Sorry for the Delayed response to this, but I didn’t feel right ignoring it.
I can’t support this, unrestricted at least. We have people who have been traumatized by the ordeals they have had via your forced indoctrination which would, quite simply be too much. Maybe a designated spot? As for non-government organizations? As has been said already, in a Theocracy there is none. I don’t necessarily see the protection as inconceivable.
If this goes both ways I don’t see a major concern. If its one way I cant support it.
I agree, but realistically can’t see some form of quota on immigration not being enacted. On the boundaries of realistic possibility I don’t support it.
I won’t argue trade.
I can’t nor will I speak for the Federation.
That goes exactly against my thought of no reparations. Maybe something for the newly emancipated I suppose, but I wouldn’t have the slightest idea of how to enact such a thing.
Again, sorry for the 7 days late response.
3 Likes
vs. Trillions of enslaved or culturally stolen, maimed, or crippled Matari. No, Aldrith. Not enough. Moreover, not even the right direction to look. Twenty generations systematically brutalized. There’s no way you can even begin to try to compare miseries and hope to say ‘isn’t that enough?’
Rather, focus in a different direction. Don’t look at the price already paid for a self-inflicted wound. You paid that to yourselves. Consider instead what you can offer.
We disagree. And if you think the aggressor, not the victim, has the right to decide where the offense was, you really need to consider whether or not you aren’t dooming your efforts right there.
No, there really aren’t. There are signs that the Empire is being forced to bide its time until it can once more unleash unrestricted aggression. Regrouping and reforming ranks isn’t changing, it’s just making ready for the next campaign.
And yet still the slave raids continue, conducted by the Imperial Navy. So no, we cannot rest assured of that. Because you demonstrably don’t.
4 Likes