This thread is masturbatory sophistry, t-b-h.
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Iām sorry weāre not entertaining you in the manner you desire. Perhaps find a thread more to your liking to ride your high horse through?
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Thereās a point, Arrendis, past which original aggression blurs.
Miz wants freedom for āherā people ā¦ who may not recognize themselves as hers.
You point to centuries of suffering ā¦ under the rule of people long dead.
And yet both of these claims have force, power, conviction. Theyāre genuine, or genuine enough to fuel a death of worlds.
Your claim isnāt pure, either, though, and your perspective is not mine. I could kill you to defend what you threaten, and not shed a tear for the wrongness of the act. I could break Mizās will to survive, without consideration for the innocents I would harm to do so.
That I donāt seek to do such things, is more to the credit of your enemy than yourselves. But their cause isnāt pure, eitherā¦
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Youāre full of yourself a lot, honestly. I have a fun little image that I cooked up some time ago - about a month, actually. I took the top eight threads I saw and got the top five posters from each one.
Like, Iām not saying Iām the post police, or anything, but come on. Itās the same arguments presented in the same way, so lovingly layered in undisguised high-school condescension again and again and again. Which, wellā¦ isnāt really happening in this thread, but Iād rather not make a new one just to post this, soā¦ convenience, I guess.
Iām just always wondering where the long-winded commentary can meet succinct and candid points.
EDIT: Slightly adjusted to not be a raging douche.
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Once they are free to make their own decisions, it doesnāt matter anymore. Then they are their own people, responsible for themselves. My responsibility then shrinks to those who still lift their hands upwards in the hopes that we will carry them home.
Until they are free, they remain my responsibility, like I was the responsibility of the one who took mine.
I suspect youāre not up to a task the Empire failed.
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@Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt
I must agree that when you start as a IGS participant, itās a little bit like that how you feel like the community is 
itās not really engaging when you try to come in for the first time It feel a little bit like the pre-alpha elitism problem in new eden.
but I digress from the thread ^^
still waiting a response to my proposal, Iām starting to feel that you only treat response going in your way of proving that the problem come only from the minmatars
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Well then, Ms Jenneth, what solution would you bring to the table?
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I sense a challenge in those words, but I canāt decide if itās to post more meaningful content, or post more often than Ms Arrendis. 
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An aspect you need to consider is that the reason thereās a re-threading of the same old ground over several threads is that the issue is that significant and there has been no further development or solutions in sight. This means the options are either to start pretending the issue is no longer there, or keep at it until a crack is found in the blocking wall where enough pressure can be applied to get past it.
Yes, this is hardly very entertaining, but that isnāt exactly the purpose. Itās also rather varied in quality of argumentation and contribution, from everyone involved, simply due to the fact that itās a varied kind of audience and everyone has slumps and peaks in both performance and capacity for effort.
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People keep bringing this up. You, Shutaq, everyone defending the Amar really. See, unlike the Amarr Iād actually be content to leave those who want to stay. As long as they are a free, as long as they can choose for themselves. I am not advocating of forced removal of those who are Minmatar through their blood but Amarr in their soul. No one has.
If this was trying to be somekind of claim that all Minmatar have been converted, that is simply not true. Minmatar that now live in the Republic resisted conversion for over 700 years. Despite over a hundred years passing since the Rebellion, there are still trillions of Minmatar who will resist it. But, like Miz has been saying, every day a few more break.
For many, the suffering never ended. It is perpetrated even today. Some Holders might be benevolent and kind, but for every such Holder there is one who is sadistic and cruel, for whom the life of a slave is worth less (or, indeed worthless) than buying a machine that would replace the workload of a thousand of slaves, for whom a slave is just that, property, a thing, not something to care for as a human being.
Is your āblood oathā or whatever it was that you used to justify not having a will of your own, that makes you disregard the suffering of others also a credit for the Amarr?
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ābut Iām gonna be the post police.ā
āThereās this thing I wanna complain about, so lemme crap all over you here even though itās not happening here.ā
Shouldāve adjusted more. So lemme slightly adjust my statementā¦
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Hm. Well ā¦ thatās fair to ask. Please understand that Iām speaking for myself only.
The current armed conflict in the Bleak Lands doesnāt seem to serve a lot of purpose. I used to feel like it was a sort of pressure valve, bleeding away the tension, but, Iām not so sure of that anymore. That should probably just end, with a return to preexisting sovereign political borders.
The prior Empress declared that the ātime of chainsā was ending. It should probably finish ending. I realize itāll probably be hard to do this fast, but steps need to be plotted out, steady ones. Just sending all those people to the Republic would probably kind of explode both economies, but giving people a chance to go, or stay, as they prefer might work pretty well, especially if itās done in phases.
The Amarr might see this as a betrayal of the Reclaiming, but, maybe it should be the least acculturated who get priority for release? If the timing for Relcaiming by the sword is ending, then a good way to prove that is by letting those who were to be Reclaimed in that way go, and taking another go at Reclaiming them, later, by peaceful means.
About the Reclaiming: asking that it end, period, isnāt a realistic goal. Itās like asking the Gallente to stop going on about rights. The Reclaimingās just a little bit more ā¦ formal? ā¦ as a cultural trait. Peacefully conducted, it still worries me in kind of a similar way to Gallentean cultural imperialism, but, looking at it a different way, our own cultures and faiths should be strong enough to withstand a bunch of earnest religious sorts who basically just want to talk to us. And, of course, a dialog goes both ways-- we get the chance to influence them back.
Really, the Republic already goes along with this way beyond what the State allows: basically tolerating the believers in its midst, without punishing them for trying to spread their faith. Iām not sure the Republic should have to do such a thing within its own borders, but, itās chosen to prioritize blood-- family, if you like-- over religious belief, and I kind of admire the decision.
The Imperial side of this is pretty much stuff I think the Empire should do for its own sake, regardless of whether itās part of an agreement with the Republic: committing to the principles of Pax Amarria. Actually, going ahead with it without asking for compensation of some sort would probably make the Matari militarist cause harder to sustain, and definitely to build up in the ways Miz and Arrendis imagine.
As for stuff the Republic should do? ā¦ well, itās probably going to be hard to ask you to let go of your grudge, at least in the short term. Not shooting people or plotting further surprise attacks with secretly-constructed capital fleets would be nice, as a start. The Amarr would be way more likely to expect the next one, anyway.
Maybe, going forward, just make sure that diplomacyās done in good faith? You could say, of course, that you donāt owe such a thing to the Amarr, but I donāt mean for their sake. The whole cluster saw the attack on CONCORD HQ by the Elder Fleet, and the incursion into Federal space by Matari dreadnoughts after Karin Midularās murder. Being known as breakers of treaties, initiators of hostilities, and violators of borders wonāt do you favors, moving forward. Nobody else cares very much how justified you feel.
(That goes, to an extent, for the Caldari, too. The Amarr and Gallente seem like aggressors to us, but they werenāt the ones who broke faith this time.)
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There certainly is, Aria. But that doesnāt ever mean the aggressor gets to define where the crime was. It doesnāt mean the aggressor gets to tell the victim what should make it all ok. I donāt get to murder Aldrithās kids and then say ābut look at how much that ammo cost me, isnāt that restitution enough?ā
The offender who wishes to avoid retribution doesnāt get to frelling dictate terms to his victims. Find me a single civil litigation system where thatās considered reasonable, and Iāll lay you good odds it was designed by the Amarr.
Because thatās what Aldrithās doing here. And itās why I say that no, there is no way to trust the Empire in any overtures toward āpeaceā: because they believe we donāt have to right to decide what we want redressed. They think we donāt get to decide what we consider wrong, and hold them accountable for. And no matter how much they might want to tell us āno no, the Reclaiming is a giftāā¦ itās not. Its specific intent is the death of our ways, the death of our identity.
No, someone seeking to murder us and replace us with people who look like us but think like them? Not someone we can trust.
And in so doing, I point to a people now who have lost much of their history, much of the culture and identity we would have had, a people who by all surviving accounts on both sides were peaceful, whoāif the Starkmanir are any exampleāmight well have welcomed the chance to learn of the Amarr faith and been happy with those who brought itā¦ but are instead maimed and mutilitated, emotionally and culturally. We are transformed, by them, into a people of violence, vengeance, rage, and hate. Itās an injury that can never be undone.
And I point to a people now who to this day continue to benefit from that maiming, that savaging. We keep hearing it straight from them, Aria: we are their labor force. WE are the engine of their economy. Remove us now, it collapses, but more: we built it. Nearly a thousand years of Amarr advancement has been on our backs. Every Amarr alive today enjoys the standard of living they do because their ancestors brutalized ours. People point to the Amarr and attempt their nonsense about ābut see how long theyāve endured, how well theyāve done!ā and itās lies.
They havenāt done well. Theyāve stolen all that advancement and labor from us. So yes, Aria, the centuries-long systemic theft of our bloody potential is something that there needs be restitution for, as well.
Why do all of the Amarr and the retainers of the Amarr keep bringing this up like anyone has suggested it? THE ONLY PERSON WHO EVER DECIDED THAT WAS THE THING TO DO WAS THE DAMNED EMPRESS. Why do you think so many people feel that was actually an economic attack?
Just gonna point out, this would mean those most in danger of losing who they were completely would remain in chains so the Amarr have more time to make it all stick.
Just to point out the similarities between us and the Caldari: I donāt really think either of us give a fetid fedo fart if anyone else cares.
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Well ā¦ that might be what you would want, Arrendis. What you ask, I expect, thereās no real ability to provide; and what canāt be done, wonāt. Realistically, though, I wonder: if the Amarr actually did commit to their Pax, would you still have enough support to pose a credible threat to them?
How do you end the conflict? ā¦ Make the anger sustaining the Matari cause unsustainable, its proponents unreasonable extremists even in the eyes of their own.
Your anger is your strength. Stealing an enemyās strength is a time-honored Amarrian strategy. Thatās what the Empire should do, now.
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I think you wildly underestimate the effect of kin in chains upon a tribal society this proud of freedom, Aria. This wrath, if anything, grows until the cause is no more.
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Thatās you, speaking for yourself, Miz. And probably a lot of others, too, but-- if there were a concrete schedule for the phasing out of slavery, and the Amarr were sticking to it without trying to drop any economic bombs on the Republic ā¦ I wonder how many youād still be speaking for.
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I cannot agree more with you. Itās exactly what I tried to pass in my last proposal.
We cannot force the amarrians to change their ways especially about the reclaiming except by force (and Iām not even sure it would do it) so arguing over and over the āend all slaveryā is never going anywhere, as I said in my post, me must find a peaceful way, even if not immediately perfect.
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More than enough. I know this is something your kind canāt actually grasp or understand, but there are certain things that come with being Matari that doesnāt get extinguished through such means. I genuinely wish it werenāt so, because it wasnāt part of us before the Day of Darkness, but in this the Amarr have created their own worst enemy. These hundreds and even thousand of years have forged something that isnāt that easily broken.
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Do they still hold Matari in chains? Then yes, we would. If notā¦ then weāve won.
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Iām not sure thatās a bad thing for the Amarr even if you italicize it, Arrendis. But thatās in the long run. Getting thereās the trick.
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