And this is why the IGS must be destroyed.
2 Likes
Iām matari from both father and mother and yet I do not wish the destruction of the amarr empire. I DO wish the liberation of the matari but we also must face reality: itās not with fire that we will extinguish this burning desireā¦
1 Like
Reclaiming is simultaneously tied to Amarr state policies and justified by the Amarr faith. If Reclaiming is to continue it either has to be religious with no political power or support, or it has to be secular state policy without being a tool of the Amarr faith. Additionally, all the ideas of invasion and enslavement of others to advance the Amarr Empire will have to be dropped. So Reclaiming will become a competing player in the marketplace of secular ideas, or it becomes one voice out of many in the area of religion with no particular advantage or disadvantage given to Reclaiming either way. If there is anything of value to Reclaiming then those parts of it may survive and be incorporated into other societies. My suspicion is that most societies already have the same good ideas that may exist in Reclaiming as I think the Amarr faith merely co-opted those ideas in the first place. Itās for this reason that the Amarr faith must protect Reclaiming from critical examination and elevate it above most other ideas and values.
Iād be happy to have the Amarr prove me wrong though. I think some Amarr have the courage to do so, but will the Empire as a whole?
It would take courage and self awareness to do that, donāt you think? Qualities lacking in various combinations throughout the cluster, but Iād love to see the Amarr answer their own humanity.
To be fair to Ms Arrendis and Ms Delāthul, there is precedent for their concerns. Asking the Republic to act in good faith, while understandable, will be difficult with the wounds still fresh and, letās be honest here, still being inflicted.
While your point about the aggressions committed by the Republic are true, the Minmatar have a lot to be angry about. Everyone in the cluster will have to deal with that for a very long time here on out, but how do you come to terms with a thousand years or more of ongoing enslavement and aggression against your people? I may not condone or support the aggressions committed by the Republic, but I understand who is at the root of it even while being angry at the individual Minmatar who committed the acts.
In summary, how do we as a cluster, and the Amarr specifically, change Reclaiming? Because as it stands its not acceptable and I canāt blame the Minmatar if they reject any proposed changes. Also, how can the Amarr show that theyāre not going to be aggressive to an understandably suspicious Republic? How do you free all those slaves without Amarr Holders trying to retaliate and leading to retaliation in turn from the Republic?
I apologize for all these questions. The more ideas are proposed the more questions Iām left with. If someone gives me a listening ear then those questions start to bubble up.
1 Like
If you believe āMatariā comes from bloodline, then you are no Matari.
Minmatar and Matari are very different things, and donāt start ascribing your false dichotomies to other people.
If itās the only tool available, itās the one weāll use. I used to be like you, looking for a diplomatic, economic, peaceful solution over timeā¦ but all that does is let them stall. They make no moves. They continue the raids, even as they publicly claim those thousands of bloody ships are just a āfringe elementā thatās āgone rogueā. So which is less objectionable to you: bloodshed, or slavery?
1 Like
I think thatās a point lost on many people and I think it bears explaining what the difference is. I know I had learned the difference only fairly recently myself and wonāt call a Minmatar a Matari for that reason.
1 Like
For either of these things to be possible, there would need to be separation between the Amarr Faith and the Amarr Government. There is none. The Empress heads both, supported by the Theology Council and the Great Houses. Amarr Scripture is Law. There can be no Reclaiming without the stateās support, and no secular policy that is not a matter of faith. What you seek there is literally for them to be not Amarr.
3 Likes
Pish. Faiths change all the time. When itās considered acceptable itās called revelation. When it becomes widespread itās called canon.
2 Likes
and thatās exactly the problem with the IGS. rather than explaining you are condescending and retain knowledge.
then what it is to be matari?
As of concord describ it, Iām of matari origin, genetically,
I believe in matariās spirits/gods
I have passed my marking ritual.
What should I do more than that??
If being matari mean āI want to do a blood shed of all amarriansā then yes, Iām not matari.
In my opinion? bloodshed, always and for ever because a dead cannot be alive again but a slave can always be free in the futur.
And I think it OUR responsibility, us as capsuleer, to lead the example.
go talk with an actual mine worker or station staff, we seen as cruel god to them. At the kyononke inquest it was EXTREMELY CLEAR.
So yes, the empire is not moving, it is why WE should propose things, WE have power, economically especially.
Personally, my effort to liberating slaves started a long time ago when I set a buy order to buy all the slaves I could, I only need a way to free them, in the meantime they are treated well.
If being āMatariā is not from being of Minmatar blood, for whom do you seek āfreedomā for - Matari or Minmatar?
No, no, and no. Secular societies are the death of spirituality and Amarr must never go down that road. If you think it is āinhumaneā now, just wait until there is no longer any fundamental morality holding people back. Slavery is at its worst in the Kingdom and Tash-Murkon, or among the traffickers of the Angel Cartel, places where the faith is set aside or doesnāt exist at all. Itās at its worst in Amarr where Holders forget their duty as servants of God.
Changing Amarr requires instilling the fear of God in those who act against His ways. We need to rethink what is truly righteous, and impose actual consequences on those who act faithlessly instead of giving them a free pass to do as they will just because of their political power.
By targeting the faith instead of the violations of the faith, all you are doing is killing what moderating elements there actually are. The problems in Amarrian slavery are not due to the faith, they are due to the fundamental flaws inherent in mankind.
3 Likes
Is the fear of Godās wrath the only thing you can think of that prevents you from committing atrocious acts against your fellow human? How do you explain those who are good without God?
What is faith? Could I get a clear definition?
1 Like
But this isnāt just a matter of a faith changing. This is quite literally the basis for their entire society. The Empress holds temporal power because she is Godās mouthpiece. The Amarr enslave ālesser bloodlinesā because they are Godās Chosen, who never turned from the faith. Those lesser bloodlines are culturally assimilated, their identities and beliefs systematically eroded and destroyed through slavery and generations of re-education because the Amarr faith teaches that believing anything different than Amarr orthodoxy is a sin. Right now, believing the wrong thing is a punishable offense. Ask Mitara about the ācleansing pitsā some time.
Every single bit of the Imperial power structure is built on this. Remove the element of the Amarr faith, and the Great Houses have no claim to their dominion. Separate the Faith from the state, and there is no mechanism for ensuring the orthodoxy of the faithful. The whole house of cards is built on the convergence of spiritual power and temporal power.
Those in power wonāt tolerate it because it threatens their power. The normal rank-and-file subjects of the Throne wonāt want it because itās scary. It threatens the social order. It makes things unsure. They have over a thousand years of having one set of rules to follow, now you want them to follow two?!? To serve two masters? HOW?? If God is God, then God is all-knowing. God says His representatives are empowered to know and interpret His Will. If Godās Will is perfect, why do you need any other law? If itās notā¦ why the fek are you believing in that faith?
The head of state who attempts to separate them will achieve only civil war. Itās a war that will see massive popular panic and unrest. Itās a war that will see the powerful institutions desperate to cling to power.
Itās a war that head of state will lose. So theyāre not going to do it.
1 Like
This does not liberate slaves. All it does is create a market, encouraging existing owners to increase their breeding or capturing efforts in order to gain more slaves to sell. Slavers, whether Amarrian institutions or capsuleers buying from those institutions to then resell to you, only earn profit and encouragement from this.
3 Likes
So you think that killing a man (which, by necessity, happens to him once) is a greater offense than to enslave him, to abuse him, to rape him spiritually, culturally, maybe even physically, again and again and againā¦ and then to do the same to his children just because theyāre his children? His grandchildren? His great-great-great-great-grandchildren?
That really where you wanna plant your flag?
1 Like
Both, of course. As well as Ni-Kunni, Jin-Mei, Civire, Intaki, and whatever else you may have leashed and chained up. Slavery becomes no more or less acceptable by the appellation of the sufferer.
No they donāt.
Oh good, you are as moronic as you appear. You just paid slavers a very handsome profit and created a further market for slaves, funding slaver raids and in the process shored up the whole system of slavery. Congratulations, you just made New Eden an even worse place.
Feds, I swear.
A bit of a correction here, secular societies does not reduce spirituality by default. It just separates government from organized religion, ensuring equal treatment regardless of the faith of the citizens of said society. The Republic is secular, and you know as well as I do that spirituality is hardly lacking among the Tribes.
Thereās fundamental morality there now? Morality and ethics is not a question of religion, kin. Those are just as alive and well in even outright atheistic societies. I understand your need to defend your faith, but donāt go so far as to give it mandates it simply doesnāt have.
Hah! If every capsuleer threw every single bit of financial power they had at any of the nations of New Eden, itād be like pissing in an ocean and expecting it to cause floods. Thatās not even taking into account that ISK does not transfer that easily to baseliner economies and when you do get it through loopholes itās at significant diminishing returns.
Ah yes. The ones who would live on their knees rather than die on their feet. You are the reason the Empire think they can actually succeed in cluster domination. They hear your weak and pathetic mewling and know they can just keep pushing, and keep pushing because you and yours will always just keep mewling and complaining until the final ultimatum arrives and youāre already broken and destroyed, spiritually and economically.
2 Likes
So ā¦ the basic need for a change, as I see it, is away from Reclaiming by the sword. By that I mean conversion by coercive force, including both by new invasions and of those who are already captive. Slave-taking and holding as a method of spreading the faith, should end. The question of whether itās still useful for stuff like punishing criminals internally is maybe something for the Amarr to talk about amongst themselves (and with certain concerned neighbors); itās presently part of a cultural system that goes way deeper than its use as a specific tactic for Reclaiming.
The fundamental Amarrian goal is to unite all of humankind. Thatās not a purpose theyāll surrender lightly (or at all). But if theyāre reliably doing it by sponsoring missions instead of sending paladins, thatās a step, yes?
Actually, this is one place where talking to Ms. Ayallah is a little instructive: she considers the Federation and Republic as good as Reclaimed; itās the State that bothers her. Both the Republic and Federation implicitly accept attempts at peaceful Reclaiming, by accepting the presence of practicing Amarrian believers. The State (the Empireās kinda-sorta ally) actually bans its practice except for visiting subjects of the Khanid Kingdom, who are allowed to practice it their faith in private (but are not allowed to try to spread it). The Caldari hate even the idea of foreign influence in general, never mind something as purposeful as the Reclaiming.
Thus, itās the State, to her, that is the problem.
I can kind of see her point. Itāll be interesting to see how things play out, over time. The Federation, in particular, being a democracy, could pretty easily tip into merging with the Empire if a clear Amarrian majority emerges.
Unlike Ms. Ayallah, I donāt actually see the contest of faiths and ideas as necessarily won by the Amarr, where that battleās being fought, though. The Amarr play a long game, for sure, but Iām skeptical of the idea that their victoryās inevitable. A lot of that is, I donāt actually believe theyāre backed by divine will. I donāt know that I mind if theyāre allowed to try to unite everybody, though.
(I admit my mindās not at all settled on this: the idea of an Amarrian mission on Achura makes me squirm.)
To the Empireās credit, they donāt seem to have gotten very into foolish things like using believers as pools of agents in other nations. (Doing that would increase suspicion of Amarrian believers, and stall their progress.) If theyāre smart, theyāll leave that as something for their enemies to baselessly accuse them of doing, rather than something they ever actually do.
If it works, itās a way the rest of the world could lose itself, for sure. But if you really lose a battle of this kind, conducted through conversations and slow persuasion over time ā¦ whatever your cause, can you really say with any certainty that you should have won?
Edit (to address your other questions):
The Amarr mostly show that theyāre not going to be aggressive by not being aggressive. Establish a pattern of behavior, and stick to it, for decades.
As for freeing slaves without the Holders making trouble (due to too much trouble having been made for the Holders) ā¦ Iāve talked a little with some Amarr about this, and I might maybe kind of have an idea. A lot of Amarrian slaves have never been anything else, and will have kind of a hard time if they just get stuck out in the world. Thatās a common argument for keeping them enslaved, but, actually, it might be something that could be worked out without disrupting their lives too awfully.
ā¦ if, that is, they want.
Iām thinking something a little like one of the Caldari communal factory facilities-- the company provides for most needs, and not knowing how to cook doesnāt necessarily mean you have to live an expensive lifestyle. Maybe some current slave facilities could be converted into something more like that.
Tricky to manage in an unproblematic way, though, especially on a large scaleā¦
Hm.
2 Likes
I thank you for making your position clear. This isnāt about āyour peopleā, it is about the Amarr institution of slavery.
It doesnāt have to be a binary choice. Isnāt there some prohibition against intentionally giving false impressions? Some āthou shalt not follow Molok the Deceiverā or something? Maybe you should spend some time in the cleansing pits. I hear theyāve just gotten in a fresh shipment of whips and pain stimulators!
1 Like
When looked at in a large enough perspective, certainly. Of course, whenever you start looking closer priorities start to form, and my people are indeed my highest priority. Once that priority has been fulfilled, the means I am willing to pursue in order to achieve it will of course be just as reduced as the priority is.
There is no such thing as perfection, but that doesnāt mean it canāt be pursued. The only question is when the price of the pursuit starts overtaking the gains. While you hold my people in chains, the price ceiling is somewhere in orbit.