(Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict

[Umbre_Fallenstar]

@Arrendis
you are merging two idea really distinct : the ORDER of likeness and the likeness in itself.

I NEVER said that I liked slavery. Otherwise I would not be here, trying to find a solution for it.

And speaking of the ORDER of likeness between slavery and killing, well, when you kill a men or women, you kill his genes, you let a family grief, hate and kill in return. AND IT’S DEFINITIVE.
when you enslave a men or women, you generate hate, yes, you brew war and retribution, yes, but CAN BE CHANGED.

@Samira_Kernher

This does not liberate slaves. All it does is create a market,

First, it’s wrong in the sens that the market ALREADY EXIST. And rather than letting AMARRIANS peoples buy them, I buy them, being certain that they will be treated fairly and when the day come, liberated.

I think it is pretty obvious from this entire thread that the market exist, me being part of it or not.

@Mizhara_Del_thul

First, well done in dodging the “explaining” things.
Second yes it does “the Matari Republic, known as the Minmatar” oh wait it is on an OFFICIAL PAGE

@Mizhara_Del_thul

Ah yes. The ones who would live on their knees rather than die on their feet. You are the reason the Empire think they can actually succeed in cluster domination. They hear your weak and pathetic mewling and know they can just keep pushing, and keep pushing because you and yours will always just keep mewling and complaining until the final ultimatum arrives and you’re already broken and destroyed, spiritually and economically.

I could response that by telling that only by killing amarrians we can free the minmatars’ slaves, you “prove” to them AND THE CLUSTER that we cannot be reasoned with, that we are blood driven and not capable of peaceful treaties.

YES, the amarr, broke many treaties, YES they still enslave people, but aren’t we, as a culture, better? We try to tell the cluster that we are not savages, yet, we act EXACTLY like the amarr’s tells.

And on the subject of violence, how many slaves the elder fleet really saved? and I mean “safely delivered in minmatar space”. And how minmatars died in the process? was the result even positive in number of citizen?

@Mizhara_Del_thul

Hah! If every capsuleer threw every single bit of financial power they had at any of the nations of New Eden, it’d be like pissing in an ocean and expecting it to cause floods. That’s not even taking into account that ISK does not transfer that easily to baseliner economies and when you do get it through loopholes it’s at significant diminishing returns.

please, you re being ridiculous, the Elder fleet is described as an impressive force, and it only had ONE titan and 12 dreadnoughts.

do you really that a force like the one was destroyed during the titanomachy would not be enough to bring an empire to it’s knee?

@Aria_Jenneth

Unlike Ms. Ayallah, I don’t actually see the contest of faiths and ideas as necessarily won by the Amarr, where that battle’s being fought, though. The Amarr play a long game, for sure, but I’m skeptical of the idea that their victory’s inevitable.

I agree with that, the war of idea is never won, history have proven it many times

[Samira_Kernher]

@Tannia_Ambrye

Is the fear of God’s wrath the only thing you can think of that prevents you from committing atrocious acts against your fellow human? How do you explain those who are good without God?

The only thing? No. But morality is something that comes from the soul. Some people might be born more good than others, more naturally pure of heart, but most people are not. Human beings are driven to base impulses and selfish greed. We need to learn how to push aside those feelings and reach for better paths. It is through the development of the soul that a person grows in emotional and spiritual wellness. Amarr call that development the Reclaiming. When you throw that away, when you let the soul rot, you are left with a society that seeks only material fulfillment - owning the bigger house, the better job, the best trophies with which to proclaim your superiority.

And if your thought here goes to, “But what about all the Amarr ostentatiousness?” Then you’d be right. Works that should be made for the purpose of praising God are so often done only to praise the self. This is exactly what I am talking about. We need to get back to the root of the faith: humble dedication to God and the Reclaiming of our own souls.

@Tannia_Ambrye

What is faith? Could I get a clear definition?

Faith, ultimately, is the development of the soul in order to achieve a transcendental wholeness. God is our lord, but most important for our living here among His creations is to Reclaim ourselves - to become better people, worthy of God’s love. That is the Destiny of Faith. While I speak as an Amarr, honestly any society that places faith before material desires is more wholesome than one that does not, even if they do not recognize God. At least such a society still acknowledges the soul and its importance in our lives.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

What the hell is this, did we get our very own Kimling or something?

@Umbre_Fallenstar

First, well done in dodging the “explaining” things.

It has already been explained, many, many, many times. That you remain ignorant of it to this day is your own failure and I’m frankly not interested in wasting time on trying to educate an appeaser.

@Umbre_Fallenstar

Second yes it does “the Matari Republic, known as the Minmatar”

Moron. That source is about as official as my underwear.

@Umbre_Fallenstar

I could response that by telling that only by killing amarrians we can free the minmatars’ slaves, you “prove” to them AND THE CLUSTER that we cannot be reasoned with, that we are blood driven and not capable of peaceful treaties.

False dichotomy. Try again, perhaps without erecting windmills to tilt at and strawmen to argue against.

@Umbre_Fallenstar

And on the subject of violence, how many slaves the elder fleet really saved? and I mean “safely delivered in minmatar space”. And how minmatars died in the process? was the result even positive in number of citizen?

… it rescued and resurrected an entire tribe you blithering idiot.

@Umbre_Fallenstar

do you really that a force like the one was destroyed during the titanomachy would not be enough to bring an empire to it’s knee?

Feel free trying to get one of those into highsec. And I do believe we were talking about financial power, no? So what exactly do you have in mind besides fleets you can’t get into highsec and a currency that is CONCORD controlled and deliberately separated from baseliner economies?

You are genuinely a moron, or just another Kimling, aren’t you?

[Mitara_Newelle]

What false impression have I given? Del’thul has stated if we were to free every last ‘Matari’ and Minmatar she would still not be satisfied.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

Oh sweetie, do you think a universe could possibly exist that’d ever leave me satisfied?

Now, a New Eden where the price of improvement becomes too high, now that’s another thing entirely. Lesser evils and so on.

[Arrendis]

@Umbre_Fallenstar

when you kill a men or women, you kill his genes, you let a family grief, hate and kill in return. AND IT’S DEFINITIVE.

when you enslave a men or women, you generate hate, yes, you brew war and retribution, yes, but CAN BE CHANGED.

When you enslave a man or woman, the unenslaved friends and family can still grieve, hate, and kill in return. The potential damage is not lessened. If anything, it is increased. The friends and family of the dead can at least comfort themselves with the idea that the victim ‘is at peace’. The enslaved? Their friends and family know the ordeal has only begun.

Yes, it can be changed… but for trillions of slaves right now… it won’t be. And most of them were born into it. Their children will be born into it. Their grandparents and grandchildren? Born into slavery.

If it was your child, which would you want? Death, or a 99.99999% certainty of a long life in bondage, and generations of suffering to follow? Lives spent without hope, even. Do you think the slaves are told ‘hey, cheer up, someone might free you’? They’re taught to be terrified of that possibility. To view people trying to help them as madmen who want to tear them away from their homes, who want to condemn their souls to eternal hellfire and suffering, even.

I know I would rather die, completely and utterly, than to have my mind and body shackled and raped like that over a painful, hopeless, interminable lifetime.

@Umbre_Fallenstar

do you really that a force like the one was destroyed during the titanomachy would not be enough to bring an empire to it’s knee?

Yes. Yes, I can say with surety that a force the size of the losses at B-R5RB would not be enough to bring an empire to its knees. Right now, I don’t think the total losses in that ■■■■■■■■■■■ would even bring us to our knees. If we can replace six dozen titans in under three months (and we can), I’m quite sure any of the empires can do it, and faster.

At one point, a single titan and a dozen dreads was an impressive force. Today? It’s a bad gate-camp.

@Mizhara_Del_thul

Moron. That source is about as official as my underwear.

When did you start wearing… nevermind.

@Mitara_Newelle

What false impression have I given?

That it’s an ‘either/or’ proposition for Miz. You cast it as either she’s in it for ‘her people’ or it’s all about the general institution of Amarr slavery, and so she should stop talking about ‘her people’. That’s the connotations of your statement. That’s why it’s a false impression, not an outright falsehood.

[Mitara_Newelle]

Think about it what you will, I was sincere in thanking Del’Thul for her statement. It brought clarity of her position to me.

[Samira_Kernher]

@Umbre_Fallenstar

@Samira_Kernher

This does not liberate slaves. All it does is create a market,

First, it’s wrong in the sens that the market ALREADY EXIST. And rather than letting AMARRIANS peoples buy them, I buy them, being certain that they will be treated fairly and when the day come, liberated.

I think it is pretty obvious from this entire thread that the market exist, me being part of it or not.

Look, I get it. I did it myself once, to try and keep people out of Nauplius’s hands. But you need to understand how this works.

1. You set up a buy order.
2. Some capsuleer sees your buy order.
3. This capsuleer goes to a Civic Court, Ammatar Consulate, Khanid Transport, or Angel Cartel corporate station, and purchases enough slaves from those corporations to fill your order.
4. Your order is filled, earning money for the capsuleer.
5. The corporations then refill their own stocks by purchasing slaves off of Holders, or potentially from illegal raids.
6. The Holders/raiders selling to those corporations begin to breed or capture more slaves.

And you’re not stopping Amarr from getting those slaves, because the SCC is a capsuleer market and therefore the only people you are “competing with” is other capsuleers. And the most infamous abuser of slaves, Nauplius, buys them straight from one of the corporations, not through SCC buy orders.

please, you re being ridiculous, the Elder fleet is described as an impressive force, and it only had ONE titan and 12 dreadnoughts.

do you really that a force like the one was destroyed during the titanomachy would not be enough to bring an empire to it’s knee?

The Elder Fleet was not impressive in size, only in its ability to get its job done despite being deep in Imperial space. It was a surgical strike force. This is somewhat more physically impressive, and that is only a small portion of the Throne Worlds fleet, which is only one of 51 Imperial fleets. A force larger than the combined total of all three Elder Fleets can be spared to just to sit in parade formation over Amarr, even.

The capsuleer armadas are getting worrisome, and collectively they could potentially challenge an empire, but the empires still have far more ships, far greater economies and stockpiles, and much, much, much superior defensive infrastructure.

[Pieter_Tuulinen]

Except for the part where no worlds got burned, I guess…

[Pieter_Tuulinen]

If you look carefully, you can still see the point in time where my people were able to accept a negotiated settlement that didn’t give us 100% of what we asked for, Pilot Rella.

It’s not caring about something that I’m decrying. It’s not caring about that thing for centuries that I’m decrying. What I’m decrying is the total inability to achieve unqualified progress on something unbearable by accepting painful compromise.

[Umbre_Fallenstar]

this message is not destined to the (few) moderates here
so basically,
If I read everyone correctly.

We are in a situation, where :
-amarrians won’t change their ways.
-minmatars want to free slaves above all else, even if it mean killing them (at least “they would be at peace”)

and no one even WANT to try something else.

We CAN’T realisticly influence by economics, or by force… because “the empire are too powerfull”

okay

so why even bother talk here?

why even creating a place like this one?

if you pass 24 hours a day yelling at each other, rebuking newcomers when they say something inexact, what exactly are you accomplishing?

trying to plunge the cluster in a total destructive war? and then? you will climb the ashes and set your flag among a devastation and say “WE WON!!” ?

I find it a little sad that those viewed by “normals” humans as gods-like are bittering like this…

fly safe I guess o7

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

Don’t let the fluid router knock your brains out on the way out.

You have precious little of it as it is, it’d seem.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Well … it’s usually the people who hold the strongest opinions who have the most to say. And saying it is relatively consequence free, usually. (Not saying that it should be otherwise.)

So … I guess … especially when there really is a shooting war-- concrete actions, concrete consequences-- it’s to be expected that the middle doesn’t have a strong voice. It’s part of why I largely frame my suggestions in terms of what the Amarr can do to weaken hostile hard-liners and drain their support away. They might never be silent, but they can be made ineffectual.

We don’t have to persuade Miz, if nobody backs her up.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

@Aria_Jenneth

We don’t have to persuade Miz, if nobody backs her up.

It’s really cute that you seem to think I’m anywhere near the summit when it comes to advocating for forceful “diplomacy”.

[Sah_Phyre]

@Umbre_Fallenstar

I find it a little sad that those viewed by “normals” humans as gods-like are bittering like this…

Not to sound like the, let’s say, less moderate participants here, but what did you expect? Baseliners can believe whatever they want, but we are still human. We will always be human. We dream, we argue, we bicker, we blame, we ask the same questions and talk in circles again.

To expect perfection, to call us “gods” is to divest us of our humanity, and to hell with anyone who tries to do that.

This topic is controversial and involves centuries of bad blood on both sides, including personal experiences. There is no consensus today. There might be one in the future. There might not ever be one. All is in God’s hands. If lack of unanimous agreement right here and now offends you so much… well, maybe Sansha Kuvakei is accepting CVs.

[Aria_Jenneth]

How is it important whether you’re near the summit, Miz? I’m using synecdoche, taking you to stand for Matari “let’s bet it all on a big war” militants generally, that’s all.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

Because I’m not looking for followers, Aria. If the war kicks off, I would be one. Using me as a synecdoche means it’s rather poorly applied. I’m not representative of a militant group or faction. Trust me when I say I barely even register in the seas of New Eden, or the Tribes back home, in these matters.

The real militants and proponents of war are vastly more powerful, vastly more influential, and far beyond your ability to influence, or mine.

[Aria_Jenneth]

You’re the closest and most recognizable firebrand to hand, so I used you.

The others, I don’t know, and probably neither do most of us here-- and it doesn’t matter a lot who they are anyway. A strategy carried out on a national level normally wouldn’t be aimed at any one person, unless that one person’s opinion carried a lot of weight.

I’m a small person, and don’t really aspire to be especially significant. But, there’s nothing new in what I’m suggesting. It’s stuff the Amarr have been moving towards for years-- actually, most of the last century-- if maybe not quite as fast, now, as before Emperor Heideran VII passed away. I think the only thing I’ve said that’s in any way new is the idea of releasing unconverted first-generation slaves first, as proof that “Reclaiming by the sword” isn’t a method that’s to be used anymore.

I doubt I’m the first to come up with that, either, but … who knows? Maybe someone will think it’s a good idea.

[Arrendis]

@Aria_Jenneth

releasing unconverted first-generation slaves first, as proof that “Reclaiming by the sword” isn’t a method that’s to be used anymore.

Releasing them? HOW ABOUT NOT TAKING THEM ANYMORE?

How about we start with just that, as some indicator of any actual intention by the Empire to not just regroup and bide their time until the next onslaught? Maybe, you know, actually put word to deed and stop the damned raids? It’s all well and good to say they’re not raiding, but we all know they are. And it’s lovely to say ‘oh, those are just criminals and those raids aren’t sanctioned’, but you know, *that’s a hell of a lot of Imperial Navy ships and crews to all be involved with not even a single one of the petty officers and able crew thinking ‘hey, the Empress and the Admiralty say we shouldn’t be doing this. I think I should maybe tell them!’

Really, the insistence that millions of Navy personnel represent a ‘rogue element’ is so absurd that I don’t even know how the Amarr expect anyone to buy it. So how about we start with just that as a way to maybe bring the more bloody-minded among us around to the idea that it’s possible the Amarr aren’t lying with every word they say… only the pleasant ones.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Uh … sure?

(I kind of hope we get to find out what conditions permit that situation. It’d reveal a lot about weak points in Amarrian social structure-- unless, as you seem to expect, it’s a matter of deniable operations instead of actually rogue ones. That would make me sad; it’s a little out of tune with what’s been stated as the direction of things here in the Empire.)