(Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict

[Arrendis]

@Tyrel_Toov

STUFF THAT AMOUNTS TO 1200 POSTS!

Yaaaaaaay! ok, guys. 799 to go.

[Diana_Kim]

@Arrendis

So… yes. It was the Empire that started the war. It was all four of them. Simultaneously. That’s why it was established by CONCORD.

Ancestors choker, I don’t even know why I bother answering to… this. But, fine, I’ll make an attempt.

For Maker’s sake, CONCORD didn’t start the war. They only offered rules to contain the conflict within designated zones. The rules, that same Gallente violated in YC115, and which I don’t think should be upheld anymore (at least against Gallente) by this reason.

But CONCORD didn’t start any wars, they only made an attempt at regulating the conflict. The war has started by Elder fleet, which attacked said CONCORD and then the Empire.

And speaking about CONCORD, I despise them. They were attacked by Elder fleet and instead of retaliating they were just trying to offer solutions, regulate conflicts, and so on? What a disgraceful cowards! If I were in charge of CONCORD, I’d send all my fleets into Wildlands, or wherever these Elder pests ran in horror from Jamyl Sarum, I would just glass and steamroll these bastards until they would recognize what have they done and surrender themselves to be imprisoned (or enslaved according to Amarr law for what they did in the Empire).

@Arrendis

And yet, we’ve established that it is indeed innocents who are being taken as slaves. Innocent civilians, outside the Warzones, who have never done anything that places them within the Amarr Empire’s jurisdiction. You, in fact, have accepted Deitra’s confirmation of this. That is not hallucination. Or are you having memory problems?

Civvies often become collateral damage in the conflicts, it happens from all the sides. I know only two parties who target civvies on purpose:

1. Gallente death squads (genocide of colonists in the warzone)
2. Minmatar chaos fighters (murder, kidnapping of civvies)

But if you are going to claim that the official Empire targets civvies on purpose (and not as collateral damage), I’ll just laugh at your face and call for attendants to drag you into asylum.

[Deitra_Vess]

@Diana_Kim

But if you are going to claim that the official Empire targets civvies on purpose (and not as collateral damage), I’ll just laugh at your face and call for attendants to drag you into asylum.

Respectfully, they do. Whether it is captains acting on their own accord or the Amarr Navy itself is the only place where doubt can be placed. It is an occurance that happens all too commonly though.

Seen it with my own eyes and have tags in Eram to prove it which I’ll gladly show if theres doubt to its validity.

[Kalaratiri]

@Diana_Kim

Civvies often become collateral damage in the conflicts, it happens from all the sides.

Ok fair enough.

@Diana_Kim

I know only two parties who target civvies on purpose:

Hrmm. A second sentence that directly contradicts your first. A bold strategy.

@Diana_Kim

Gallente death squads (genocide of colonists in the warzone)
Minmatar chaos fighters (murder, kidnapping of civvies)

What a shock, it’s your enemies!

@Diana_Kim

But if you are going to claim that the official Empire targets civvies on purpose (and not as collateral damage), I’ll just laugh at your face and call for attendants to drag you into asylum.

Why is it that the Minmatar and Gallente are so obviously targeting civilians on purpose, but the mere concept of the Amarr or Caldari doing the same is laughable to the point of being insane?

If all parties target civilians accidentally, then how is it you can prove the Gallente and Minmatar are doing it on purpose, and prove the Caldari and Amarr are doing it by mistake?

If the Amarr and Caldari are doing it by accident, why does it keep happening? Why haven’t they put protocols in place to protect the civilians of their enemies from their own, apparently incompetent, captains? Can’t they follow simple instructions?

Why is the evidence the Amarr and Caldari target civilians deliberately less valid than the evidence the Gallente and Minmatar do the same?

Can you actually prove that the Amarr are not targeting civilians outside the Empire in order to take them as slaves? We can certainly prove that they are. Where’s your evidence?

Or is it just a case of personal bias and denial of anything you don’t want to hear?

[Arrendis]

@Diana_Kim

But if you are going to claim that the official Empire targets civvies on purpose (and not as collateral damage), I’ll just laugh at your face and call for attendants to drag you into asylum.

So are you calling Deitra a liar? Because she’s again confirming that yes, the Imperial Navy is attacking civilians on purpose.

[Diana_Kim]

@Kalaratiri

Hrmm. A second sentence that directly contradicts your first. A bold strategy.

There is no contradiction except in your hallucinating brain.

@Kalaratiri

Why is it that the Minmatar and Gallente are so obviously targeting civilians on purpose, but the mere concept of the Amarr or Caldari doing the same is laughable to the point of being insane?

I am myself a professional soldier. If I will be ordered to shoot civvies - I’ll do that at once without second thought - just because my superiors know more and these civvies could be freedom fighters in disguise or some FIO agents, or whatever. But when I am picking a target as a Commander, I will never pick a known civvie target - again, because I am a professional. Popping civvies without purpose is just a waste of time and resources, it doesn’t bring military advantage.

And thus I estimate chance of Caldari attacking civvies on purpose to be less than error margin. Yes, making claims we will target civvies is insane.

I don’t know about Empire professional standards, but I know about one thing that unites us with Imperials: it is Honor. There are three main components of Honor: Loyalty, Courage and Honesty. It means if a Honorable officer (or Paladin) tells something, they shall not violate the word. And so if Imperial officials say that they enslave only Prisoners of War and Criminals, I do believe them implying their Honor. Doubting Honor is an insult.

@Kalaratiri

and prove the Caldari and Amarr are doing it by mistake?

You can’t prove that. You can prove only existence of the event, and if you can’t - absence is implied.
Doing things on mistake can be proven though - but by each case in particular. Did you bring any case where such attack happened? I see only you blabbering empty words.

@Kalaratiri

If all parties target civilians accidentally, then how is it you can prove the Gallente and Minmatar are doing it on purpose,

Besides mentioned accidental targetting, I did bring examples of parties who do that on purpose. You still not aware about them?
Well, Gallente death squads are Gallente teams, operating in Black Rise, who attack colonies instead of military installations and committing genocide of Caldari people (you can run GalNet search for ‘Death Squads’ and ‘Black Rise’, you can get something like that:
" The Servant Sisters of EVE have released further details of their independent investigation into the death squads targeting Caldari civilians in Black Rise, pinning the blame on a squad of Federation Navy cloned soldiers.")

Now, Minmatar freedom fighters. This is a bit tricker one. It is implied they want to “kill slavers”, which means “murder civilians” and “free slaves”, which means “kidnap civilians”. So, I would say it is targetting civilians by setting their own goals.

Besides, there is another aspect of Minmatar side - I haven’t included it in my original list, since their intent on harming civilians is… dubious, but the fact of them harming civilians is almost guaranteed. We already got that chaos fighters set goal to “free slaves”, which means, basically, “free criminals” (slavery in the Empire is often used as a penal punishment). We can see strong tint towards criminality of the Republic, which resolves in forming distinct criminal squads - Valklears. And what THESE ones can do when they will have a chance at civilian population?.. You can guess.

@Kalaratiri

If the Amarr and Caldari are doing it by accident, why does it keep happening? Why haven’t they put protocols in place to protect the civilians of their enemies from their own, apparently incompetent, captains? Can’t they follow simple instructions?

I don’t bother about accidental civilian life loss. Caring for that is cutting down own efficiency at dealing with hostile military forces and providing them with better ground. Why they should?

@Kalaratiri

Why is the evidence the Amarr and Caldari target civilians deliberately less valid than the evidence the Gallente and Minmatar do the same?

Ahahaaaa… WHAT evidence? Care to show where Caldari targets civlians? Sorry, but your empty barking on forum won’t pass as one, try better.

@Kalaratiri

Can you actually prove that the Amarr are not targeting civilians outside the Empire in order to take them as slaves? We can certainly prove that they are. Where’s your evidence?

One who blames brings evidences. No evidence = no crime. I don’t have to prove anything or bring any evidence.

If you are blaming someone in something and asking to bring evidence they didn’t do it, excuse me, you are just dumb.

[Valerie_Valate]

@Diana_Kim

I am myself a professional soldier. If I will be ordered to shoot civvies - I’ll do that at once without second thought - just because my superiors know more and these civvies could be freedom fighters in disguise or some FIO agents, or whatever. But when I am picking a target as a Commander, I will never pick a known civvie target - again, because I am a professional

And what if your supreme commander orders you to order your soldiers to fire on a target that you believe to be a civilian target ? Do they still know more ? What if Intel tells you that a target is a FIO target, but everything your own forces can see tells you it is a civilian target ? Do you, as commander, order your soldiers to fire ?

[Diana_Kim]

Affirmative.

[Corraidhin_Farsaidh]

Isn’t it a war crime if you knowingly fire on civilians?

[Valerie_Valate]

So when Gallente soldiers shoot up a civilian target, then that is their personal responsibility, but when Caldari soldiers shoot a target that appears civilian, then they are only following orders of a more knowledgeable senior officer.

[Diana_Kim]

@Corraidhin_Farsaidh

Isn’t it a war crime if you knowingly fire on civilians?

If it is so, I’d like to arrest whole Federation and Republic government for war crimes.

[Diana_Kim]

@Valerie_Valate

So when Gallente soldiers shoot up a civilian target, then that is their personal responsibility, but when Caldari soldiers shoot a target that appears civilian, then they are only following orders of a more knowledgeable senior officer.

Negative. I blame whole Federation in that. And after that blame every soldier for following this criminal regime.

[Valerie_Valate]

So when Gallente soldiers shoot up a civilian target then they’re committing the double crime of shooting civilians, and following the illegal orders of an illegal criminal regime. Got it. I understand completely.

But the Caldari soldiers are following the legitimate orders of more knowledgeable senior officers, thus no crime has occurred.

[Diana_Kim]

@Valerie_Valate

So when Gallente soldiers shoot up a civilian target then they’re committing the double crime of shooting civilians, and following the illegal orders of an illegal criminal regime. Got it. I understand completely.

But the Caldari soldiers are following the legitimate orders of more knowledgeable senior officers, thus no crime has occurred.

When exactly we were ordered to shoot civvies?..

[Valerie_Valate]

In your example a few posts above where you said if your commander gave an order you’d follow it because your commander is more knowledgeable, and the civilians could be FIO or something.

[Diana_Kim]

@Valerie_Valate

In your example a few posts above where you said if your commander gave an order you’d follow it because your commander is more knowledgeable, and the civilians could be FIO or something.

First of all, I don’t really think that shooting civvies is a crime. I mean… if you kill your spouse at home with a frying pan - it’s a crime. But if you wear uniform - you get ability to use weapon. And you get ability to be killed by weapon for doing that. You are the target, and you are the killer. For me, killing civvies is just an embezzlement that puts you on a same plank of inefficiency like, say, terrorists.

But when people say that popping civvies shall be considered a crime, I say, that Federation and Republic shall be put under trial for this first, as the main offenders.

The situation with the order was hypothetical. Unlike gallente, I wasn’t ever ordered to commit a genocide of civvies, nor ever gave such order myself to anyone.

[Deitra_Vess]

Republic Fleet R.O.E. does NOT permit targetting civilians. If we take criminal entities into account for the actions of their race of origin’s navies, lets have a chat about the Guristas and their conduct effecting the State’s Navy. Idiotic yes? You are referring to those who do not follow the regulations of our Republic as those who represent people such as myself who takes them seriously.

For the record, Out of the thousand plus ships I’ve neutralized, only 3 roughly were not fit with guns and taking a hostile stance towards myself or my fleet. We. Don’t. Target. Civilians.

[Diana_Kim]

@Deitra_Vess

Republic Fleet R.O.E. does NOT permit targetting civilians. If we take criminal entities into account for the actions of their race of origin’s navies, lets have a chat about the Guristas and their conduct effecting the State’s Navy. Idiotic yes? You are referring to those who do not follow the regulations of our Republic as those who represent people such as myself who takes them seriously.

Well, I wasn’t talking about Angel Cartel and their slavery this time, I’ve mentioned Valklears, and as far as I understand, Valklears are employed not by criminal cartels, but by Republic. Am I wrong in this?

The State doesn’t hire Gurista, but who hires Valklears then?

And speaking about Republic Fleet R.O.E. Would they attack a known slaver? A slave owner, who will be relocating his slaves, trying to evade RF presence? Or a direct slaver, who actually enslaves people?
And what about slaves? Would RF free slaves when they encounter them in hostile territory?

[Deitra_Vess]

@Diana_Kim

Well, I wasn’t talking about Angel Cartel and their slavery this time, I’ve mentioned Valklears, and as far as I understand, Valklears are employed not by criminal cartels, but by Republic. Am I wrong in this?

The State doesn’t hire Gurista, but who hires Valklears then?

Hire?

You seem to be confused on just what the definition of a Penal Military Unit actual means. They aren’t hired, they are serving their debt to our society by defending it with their lives. What you call questionable we call resource management.

@Diana_Kim

And speaking about Republic Fleet R.O.E. Would they attack a known slaver? A slave owner, who will be relocating his slaves, trying to evade RF presence? Or a direct slaver, who actually enslaves people?

And what about slaves? Would RF free slaves when they encounter them in hostile territory?

All of your questions here, aside from the last one: Yes… if these slavers are conducting those actions within Sovergn Republic space where they are infringing upon Republic law. Free slaves? Anywhere, since if our Republic is conducting military action outside of our territory it is for a reason. We do not recognize their classification of slavery on our kin. They aren’t slaves anymore than Caldari prisoners of war are Federal property once you or I rescue them. They aren’t right? Neither are my kin property of the Amarr once they come to me or my kin. Once they enter our ships they are in Republic territory and defended by Republic law in the eyes of the Republic Fleet.

[Diana_Kim]

@Deitra_Vess

Hire?

You seem to be confused on just what the definition of a Penal Military Unit actual means. They aren’t hired, they are serving their debt to our society by defending it with their lives. What you call questionable we call resource management.

They are still serving, and as I imagine their deployment type - they can be in contact with Imperial civilian population. I can understand stuffing criminals as crewmembers, but using them as ground pounding squads?..

@Deitra_Vess

Free slaves? Anywhere

And that is a targeting of a civilian population, Ms. Vess.
The slavery is a quite complex topic, which even I myself don’t understand completely. Previously I have been referring to the penal side of the slavery, considering slaves to be criminals, punished for whatever they have done in the Empire. But this system doesn’t work like ours, where you sentence and imprison someone. The essence of using slavery of punishment is a drop of social status, where you status drops from “Citizen” to a “Slave”. Well, and it isn’t really even that simple, as I have heard there are many gradations of slaves. But it’s not really important to the idea I am coming to: the slaves are a distinct social class in the Amarr Empire. There are some slaves that can be used in the military operations, like crewmembers, but in the majority slaves are civilians.

Maybe they are the lowest social class in the Empire, but still they are part of the society, and many of them live way better than they would live in same Republic or even Federation after they would be kidnapped. Besides that, slaves that aren’t direct criminals (first year ones), just live in this setting, they get families, friends, they build relations, and all this will be just torn away from them. That’s not better than some Angel Cartel will steal you and sell to slavery in their pleasure hub.