(Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict

[Deitra_Vess]

@Diana_Kim

They are still serving, and as I imagine their deployment type - they can be in contact with Imperial civilian population. I can understand stuffing criminals as crewmembers, but using them as ground pounding squads?..

“Serve or die in this cell” There’s a lot of choice right there… I can understand where your coming from on what you say but there’s a huge point your missing, free will. As I have said in the past, that is not much of a choice when it comes down to it. What does our military have to gain? Cheap labor. What does the Judiciary system have to lose? One less mouth to feed. Proper resource management. Everyone’s happy. And to the prisoners? If you haven’t realized self determination is rather important to us and fighting for it is not a hard choice.

@Diana_Kim

And that is a targeting of a civilian population, Ms. Vess.

The slavery is a quite complex topic, which even I myself don’t understand completely. Previously I have been referring to the penal side of the slavery, considering slaves to be criminals, punished for whatever they have done in the Empire. But this system doesn’t work like ours, where you sentence and imprison someone. The essence of using slavery of punishment is a drop of social status, where you status drops from “Citizen” to a “Slave”. Well, and it isn’t really even that simple, as I have heard there are many gradations of slaves. But it’s not really important to the idea I am coming to: the slaves are a distinct social class in the Amarr Empire. There are some slaves that can be used in the military operations, like crewmembers, but in the majority slaves are civilians.

Maybe they are the lowest social class in the Empire, but still they are part of the society, and many of them live way better than they would live in same Republic or even Federation after they would be kidnapped. Besides that, slaves that aren’t direct criminals (first year ones), just live in this setting, they get families, friends, they build relations, and all this will be just torn away from them. That’s not better than some Angel Cartel will steal you and sell to slavery in their pleasure hub.

Being a civilian implies you have rights. Yes they can have families, ect. They also don’t have any protection in maintaining that family. They get bought and sold after all. They can be in the military… if they are put there by their holder. Much like my Caldari prisoner of war example, they have no rights in the eyes of the captor. Even while operating under the Republic in Black Rise, those “combatants” I recovered were not a threat to our Republic(or our operations as we were not there for combat with the State), under our laws (I know people won’t agree with my assessment here but bare with me) they were to be given treatment for injuries and treated humanely. Is it hard to believe that we consider our own kin worthy of self determination? Its one of the tenants our Republic was founded on.

Take it from someone who has dealt with the aftermath of this “slave caste system.” In the eyes of the Amarr, they are dogs. They are worms, they are NOT human in their eyes. Their whole reason for enacting slavery is to lift up “lower beings” into this farce of a religion, as if belief in their stories makes you human. Much like your kin will be seen when you become less useful of allies. I hope that day never comes, but… I don’t trust them that much.

[Diana_Kim]

@Deitra_Vess

“Serve or die in this cell” There’s a lot of choice right there… I can understand where your coming from on what you say but there’s a huge point your missing, free will. As I have said in the past, that is not much of a choice when it comes down to it. What does our military have to gain? Cheap labor. What does the Judiciary system have to lose? One less mouth to feed. Proper resource management. Everyone’s happy. And to the prisoners? If you haven’t realized self determination is rather important to us and fighting for it is not a hard choice.

Well, Ms. Vess, labor, will, management, happiness… It is all just excuses. But what we have is criminals at large, who are already known for committing crimes against civilian population. I am not talking about soldiers, who will fire on a target that commanders will point them. I am talking about murderers, rapists, robbers, slanderers, thieves. All the dishonorable scum, who will attack civilians for their own petty needs.

@Deitra_Vess

Being a civilian implies you have rights. Yes they can have families, ect. They also don’t have any protection in maintaining that family. They get bought and sold after all. They can be in the military… if they are put there by their holder.

No no no, Ms. Vess. I cannot agree with that.

And first of all, with the whole concept of “rights”. Usually when I hear something about so-called “human rights”, it is a blatant gallente propaganda, and thus I strongly recommend you to avoid using, or even mentioning this concept. It does not make merit, and bringing faulty concepts into the discussion make it go sideways, instead of clarifying the situation and seeking the solution.

All so called “rights” is a nonsence. They don’t determine anything. Humans have no any intrinsic “rights” and shall not rely on this concept. The absence of “right” doesn’t make you less human.

What does identify civilian is not any of these mystical “right”, but their relation to the military service. In other words, civilians are simply not-combatants. For a military personnel like me, they are just targets of no significance or value. And that’s all.

@Deitra_Vess

Take it from someone who has dealt with the aftermath of this “slave caste system.” In the eyes of the Amarr, they are dogs. They are worms, they are NOT human in their eyes. Their whole reason for enacting slavery is to lift up “lower beings” into this farce of a religion, as if belief in their stories makes you human. Much like your kin will be seen when you become less useful of allies. I hope that day never comes, but… I don’t trust them that much.

And yet I disagree with this again. Sorry for repeating myself, but I believe it comes again from this misconception of “human right”. They are not citizens, as I was told my Ms. Kernher. But they are still human beings, not “lower than human”. Lower than citizen - yes, but not lower than human. Again, because being human is determined by your genome, not by some sort of faulty concept like “right”. Here I will bring third point of view on Amarr Slavery: they educate this way people their way of life, they teach them the Faith, and teach them to be slaves to God like being slave to man.

Saying they are not humans and “worms” is the same if I, for example, will say that minmatar children, who haven’t finished schools and didn’t get their first tattoos are not humans and “worms”. Would you like this this point of view turned against you, Ms. Vess?

[Arrendis]

@Diana_Kim

I am myself a professional soldier. If I will be ordered to shoot civvies - I’ll do that at once without second thought - just because my superiors know more and these civvies could be freedom fighters in disguise or some FIO agents, or whatever.

Then you are a poor soldier. You have an obligation to refuse any immoral orders, including shooting at civilians. If your superiors believe certain individuals to be hostiles, they should identify them as such, and not ‘civilians’. If they identify them as ‘civilians’, then you are being presented with an immoral order.

And you continue to evade the issue of the Amarr Navy willfully and intentionally targeting civilian populations outside of the warzone, as has been confirmed multiple times by a source you have accepted as reliable.

So: Is Deitra lying, or do you accept that the Amarr Navy is willfully and intentionally targeting civilian populations outside of the warzone?

[Aldrith_Shutaq]

Still too preoccupied with the fact civilian deaths happen to figure out a way to actually stop them, I see.

Maybe by post 1500 you’ll realize this discussion is for talking about how to stop bloodshed, not bemoan that it happens and use it to justify further bloodshed.

[Akali_Sharisa]

I has an answer!

Order CONCORD to expand highsec into Faction Warfare space and muscle their way into the Amarr and Matari conflict

[Deitra_Vess]

@Diana_Kim

Well, Ms. Vess, labor, will, management, happiness… It is all just excuses. But what we have is criminals at large, who are already known for committing crimes against civilian population. I am not talking about soldiers, who will fire on a target that commanders will point them. I am talking about murderers, rapists, robbers, slanderers, thieves. All the dishonorable scum, who will attack civilians for their own petty needs.

Excuses? Maybe. Giving our worst of the worst the ability prove their desire to give back to the community with their lives, that or containing our more violent elements of society into a frothing mass of firepower? Efficiency. Even our worthless give to the cause, is that not a very Caldari mentality? I would think the idea of people pulling weight for the greater good of our people would be a positive, not a negative.

@Diana_Kim

No no no, Ms. Vess. I cannot agree with that.

And first of all, with the whole concept of “rights”. Usually when I hear something about so-called “human rights”, it is a blatant gallente propaganda, and thus I strongly recommend you to avoid using, or even mentioning this concept. It does not make merit, and bringing faulty concepts into the discussion make it go sideways, instead of clarifying the situation and seeking the solution.

All so called “rights” is a nonsence. They don’t determine anything. Humans have no any intrinsic “rights” and shall not rely on this concept. The absence of “right” doesn’t make you less human.

What does identify civilian is not any of these mystical “right”, but their relation to the military service. In other words, civilians are simply not-combatants. For a military personnel like me, they are just targets of no significance or value. And that’s all.

With respect, what would you call this if not rights? I’m just confused if there’s a language difference or if there is no actual thing as “you must ___ to be considered part of society” within the Caldari culture. For us, self determination is key. Long ago our warriors would go out with their tribes support to prove themselves. They would walk a path they carve their own way through figuratively speaking with little help from their tribe (tribal sponsorship I am referring to). This was a test one would take to develop their self determination, their desire to make their own mark on their tribe, largely how they fit into the picture for their society. Think of it like a placement test for becoming an employee for one of the megacorps. “Where are you best used?” One can largely say this is why I fight, or at least how I view it.

@Diana_Kim

And yet I disagree with this again. Sorry for repeating myself, but I believe it comes again from this misconception of “human right”. They are not citizens, as I was told my Ms. Kernher. But they are still human beings, not “lower than human”. Lower than citizen - yes, but not lower than human. Again, because being human is determined by your genome, not by some sort of faulty concept like “right”. Here I will bring third point of view on Amarr Slavery: they educate this way people their way of life, they teach them the Faith, and teach them to be slaves to God like being slave to man.

Saying they are not humans and “worms” is the same if I, for example, will say that minmatar children, who haven’t finished schools and didn’t get their first tattoos are not humans and “worms”. Would you like this this point of view turned against you, Ms. Vess?

Samira would be a much better source on how they are actually seen there than me, I wont argue this. But as far as turning the tables on this? Seeing as the only actual tattoo I have from my tribe is my Naming Tattoo, no Voluval (thanks for nothing mom and dad!), or any for deeds I have done (that’s actually by choice since I don’t have the former here) I can say without a doubt that, no that’s not how it is, More like “aww poor thing, whats it like in Caille?”

[Deitra_Vess]

Looking at the current situation in the Am/Min WZ that would not go well for you…

[Deitra_Vess]

On the bright side at least were talking about how we shouldn’t be killing civilians…

[Akali_Sharisa]

But its a start, I think, next thought would be that CONCORD invalidates the conflict and ganks anyone who continues fighting.

[Deitra_Vess]

Sadly, I’d kinda prefer that at this point.

[Diana_Kim]

@Arrendis

Then you are a poor soldier. You have an obligation to refuse any immoral orders, including shooting at civilians. If your superiors believe certain individuals to be hostiles, they should identify them as such, and not ‘civilians’. If they identify them as ‘civilians’, then you are being presented with an immoral order.

You clearly have no idea what does soldier mean.
First of all, you refuse the execution not of “immoral” order, but of illegal order, and illegal order only.
And you can’t simply “refuse” to execute it - becasue in that case you are criminal and immoral person.
When you disagree with the order, you have but two options:

1. Arrest the officer, who gave that order.
2. Commit suicide to show that you cannot execute that order.

As Caldari soldier I have obligation to protect Caldari citizens (and Amarr citizens as they being our allies), and if there will be order that threatens them, of course I will consider it illegal. On the other hand, sometimes killing some civilians might mean saving greater number of civilians, and in that case that order will be completely legal.

So, before trying to arrest the officer or commit suicide, you must be damn completely sure that the order to open fire on civilians is illegal. You can’t simply “refuse” execute it.

@Arrendis

intentionally

@Arrendis

has been confirmed

Then it wouldn’t be hard for you to do that again, or just stop bothering me.

[Diana_Kim]

@Deitra_Vess

Excuses? Maybe. Giving our worst of the worst the ability prove their desire to give back to the community with their lives, that or containing our more violent elements of society into a frothing mass of firepower? Efficiency. Even our worthless give to the cause, is that not a very Caldari mentality? I would think the idea of people pulling weight for the greater good of our people would be a positive, not a negative.

I think we are just walking around the problem in circles and look in different directions. Maybe at this point it’s wiser to stop this thread of discussion.

@Deitra_Vess

With respect, what would you call this if not rights? I’m just confused if there’s a language difference or if there is no actual thing as “you must ___ to be considered part of society” within the Caldari culture. For us, self determination is key. Long ago our warriors would go out with their tribes support to prove themselves. They would walk a path they carve their own way through figuratively speaking with little help from their tribe (tribal sponsorship I am referring to). This was a test one would take to develop their self determination, their desire to make their own mark on their tribe, largely how they fit into the picture for their society. Think of it like a placement test for becoming an employee for one of the megacorps. “Where are you best used?” One can largely say this is why I fight, or at least how I view it.

Well, I have just said. Being civilian implies just not being a combatant, no concept of “right” involved. You don’t even have to be a part of society to be a civilian, you just don’t have to be a combatant.

To be considered a part of society within Caldari culture, you must be a Citizen. But there is a difference between Citizen and civilian. Citizen has obligations and responsibilities that civilian does not. Many people make accent somehow that to be a Citizen in Caldari State you have to be a Megacorp employee. But in fact, it’s just a formality. To be the Citizen, you have to serve three year military service to the State.

@Deitra_Vess

Samira would be a much better source on how they are actually seen there than me, I wont argue this. But as far as turning the tables on this? Seeing as the only actual tattoo I have from my tribe is my Naming Tattoo, no Voluval (thanks for nothing mom and dad!), or any for deeds I have done (that’s actually by choice since I don’t have the former here) I can say without a doubt that, no that’s not how it is, More like “aww poor thing, whats it like in Caille?”

Wait wait, Ms. Vess. I didn’t say someone will do that, I only asked to imagine that hypothetically, what would you feel if people started treating you that way?

[Deitra_Vess]

@Diana_Kim

I think we are just walking around the problem in circles and look in different directions. Maybe at this point it’s wiser to stop this thread of discussion.

Fully agree.

@Diana_Kim

Well, I have just said. Being civilian implies just not being a combatant, no concept of “right” involved. You don’t even have to be a part of society to be a civilian, you just don’t have to be a combatant.

To be considered a part of society within Caldari culture, you must be a Citizen. But there is a difference between Citizen and civilian. Citizen has obligations and responsibilities that civilian does not. Many people make accent somehow that to be a Citizen in Caldari State you have to be a Megacorp employee. But in fact, it’s just a formality. To be the Citizen, you have to serve three year military service to the State.

Definitely a different way of looking at it, I’ve always separated them as two totally different things. A citizen is a member of a nation, empire, ect, a civilian is anyone not in the military. Makes sense though.

@Diana_Kim

Wait wait, Ms. Vess. I didn’t say someone will do that, I only asked to imagine that hypothetically, what would you feel if people started treating you that way?

My bad on that, but in that situation I would see it as an obstacle to overcome to become what I am to the tribe. It would be a challenge not an insult. I would tend to believe I’m not alone among my kin in sharing this sentiment.

[Arrendis]

@Diana_Kim

Then it wouldn’t be hard for you to do that again, or just stop bothering me.

You mean like this?

@Deitra_Vess

Respectfully, they do. Whether it is captains acting on their own accord or the Amarr Navy itself is the only place where doubt can be placed. It is an occurance that happens all too commonly though.

Seen it with my own eyes and have tags in Eram to prove it which I’ll gladly show if theres doubt to its validity.

That’s Deitra, replying to you about whether the Empire targets civilians.

[Valerie_Valate]

This is the thread that keeps on giving.

Not that people actually want what it is giving, but hey, you can’t have everything.

[Pieter_Tuulinen]

Arrendis - I believe at one point you were concerned that this thread might not see another 18 posts?

Everyone - To try and haul this Charon of a thread back on track - it seems from some of the posts above that I managed to read, that the Republic might be induced to chill out by a mass arrest and execution of captains of ships that take part in illegal slaving expeditions?

I mean public shaming, stripping of rank and privileges, revocation of titles (if any) and then a public execution by hanging.

Matari - your thoughts?

[Arrendis]

Mass arrest and execution not only of the entire ship’s compliment for each and every one of the ships involved—including any State vessels supporting these illegal operations—as well as the command, logistics, and support elements that such a large and systemic operation needs to have in order to remain as active and persistent as they are.

The Empire knows this is going on. The Houses know this is going on. Which means that a large chunk of their military infrastructure is complicit, if only in refusing to deal with the problem. Add them to the list.

Purge all of it. Publicly. Very public. And persistent.

Then maybe we’ll believe them.

[Deitra_Vess]

I’d support Arrendis’ suggestion, but to add my own (or, after the fact in addition):

Earlier in this thread, Aldrith brought up still reclaiming Cartel members, blooders, ect. Criminals. Illegal slave raids are supposedly illegal to the Empire on an official level correct? Arrest and throw them on the block for sale, enslave them. To take a quote from Nauplius “fill them full of vitoxin and watch them suffer.” Maybe not to that extreme, but still It would solve the Amarrian lust for holding slaves, would be putting their own judicial system into practice and I would think be a rather decent deterrent towards others following that path. They break your own Empress’ word, feel free to break their spirit with their own devices.

[Arrendis]

And again: not just the ship captains. They’re not doing this without support higher up. The first time a damned Heir gets beheaded or clapped in irons and pumped full of Vitoc… then you will see change. THEN, you will see the chance for real peace.

[Pieter_Tuulinen]

Fine. Any State ships undertaking slavery raids for the Empire are breaking the laws of the Matari in Matari space, breaking the laws of the Empire in Empire space and know damn well that they’d be breaking the law in State space.

I’m fine with them suffering the legal penalty - if proven - but I’d limit it to the Officers, unless you can prove that the rest of the crew signed up for slave raids and have been profiting materially. Ships would become property of the Matari government.

Any Corporate Officer ordering slave raids should, of course, also face the penalty.