And certainly one worth making twice…
So now we agree “effort” doesn’t justify access to broken mechanics. Then you should stop bringing about how much (in your imagination) effort you are spending to maintain your umbrella, when people say the capital umbrella is broken. You can disagree on that capital umbrellas are broken. But we can focus on that question now, instead of talking about your “effort”.
No, we just accepted that you can’t reheat the effort point when people say the thing you spend effort for is broken. Let’s just talk about whether the capital umbrella is broken.
You realize functions can get more complicated then merely depending on a single variable. In a “healthy risk reward balance”, the risk on PvE capitals of a nullsec alliance can be a function that depends both on the effort/organization that the alliance commits to keep their space safe, and also on the maximum safety a nullsec system must have under a healthy ecosystem.
Referring to numbers was to make the idea clearer to you. Ofc risk -the kind of risk I am talking about- depends on many things. But that’s not to say risk is subjective. It’s actually pretty measurable. The risk taken by any alliance’s PvE capitals in nullsec can be quantified by this formula: Total ISK loss due to getting caught and killed in a PvE capital / total ISK farmed in PvE capitals. The higher the ratio, the more risk they take for farming. I am saying CCP should aim to limit to how low this ratio can get and the Goon space is way below that limit.
The formula is given above.
NS is vast and empty. There is room for whoever that wants to move. A single region right now can sustain the ISK/mineral needs of the entirety of Eve playerbase, let alone or an alliance as large as Goons. That’s really stupid for a game like Eve.
Lol this is pretty blissful of you. Obviously you know nothing, and I’m not gonna go into further details, but there are 2 game breaking economical effects of you people being able to risk free farm 70 Rorquals in the same anomaly causes. It devalues mining for everyone else. And it inflates ISK supply and PLEX prices.
I told you many times at this point that a game balance act is not a penalty. I’m kind of tired having to ignore logical fallacies all over your posts, or explain to you why they are fallacies. I guess that’s your strategy of “winning the argument” by just microwaving and using same fallacies all over again and wearing your “opponent” out. Obviously you are not aiming to have a rational discussion. If you do, then you need to work on your critical thinking skills. This is my final reply to you.
This is a nonsense comment. There is no such thing as a maximum level of safety in PvP, because safety is determined by player choices. If, hypothetically, every player in EVE agreed not to engage in PvP at all then the risk of nullsec farming would be zero. Loss would become effectively impossible (aside from maybe some clueless newbies getting killed by NPCs), and there’s nothing CCP could do to force people to shoot each other. CCP can’t create mandatory PvP. CCP can’t prevent players from forming huge alliances and prioritizing safety over conquest. A minimum level of risk can only exist as long as the players cooperate in providing it.
And that’s what has happened in this case. The members of a group have collectively decided that they’d rather farm efficiently than smash their enemies. This situation would instantly end if the various factions in the group decided to stage a coup and stop cooperating with each other. But as long as they all look at the possibility of PvP warfare and say “no thanks” the situation will continue no matter what CCP does.
And it inflates ISK supply and PLEX prices.
High PLEX prices are not a bad thing.
1 Like
The problem is you have a fundamental misunderstanding. There is no lower bound on risk that if effort takes a player below that they should suffer some sort of punishment. That is actually perverse.
Seriously, here is your argument:
Using capitals in a way that reduces the risk while doing PvE means that capitals are broken. But that is how it should be. People should be taking steps to reduce their risk. If freighter pilots did this there would never ever be another post moaning about freighter ganking. There we have the inverse problem, people taking on way, way too much risk and then complaining about the stupidity of their actions.
Now you come along and complain about people being prudent and reasonable.
That is what you are doing.
I don’t accept that there is anything broken here. This is exactly how it should be done, IMO. You should have a standing fleet. People who have alts who can be on standby ready to jump in when an ally is in trouble…that is things working as intended.
This is just all nonsense. You think there is literally some objective right answer to risk and there isn’t. Risk depends on effort and choices that those in this ecosystem make. When on finds a good strategy that reduces their risk that’s totally fine. It is on others in that ecosystem to adapt as well, not clamor for some preferred solution, from their subjective view, via Developer fiat. If you want a group to have more risk…go impose it on them, don’t go crying to CCP.
Risk is subjective. I might look at an activity and say “Too risky” and you could look at it and say, “Yeah, that’s for me.” You think there is some universal truth out there in regards to this and that it can be determined…and both of these positions are utterly false.
Again, more nonsense. Risk is not just a monetary calculation unless we are talking about someone who is risk neutral. Risk should be evaluated via individual preferences. Some people have more of an appetite for risk than others. The degree of risk I want to take on is informed, possibly, by monetary calculations, but that is only a part of it. And even there, when people like economists and actuaries translate things into money it actually represents resources.
Further, you are incorrect about alliances and risk taking. Alliances do not do anything. People do things. Alliances are lead by people and when an “alliance decides” something is too risky it is actually a person or person’s making that decision.
Which is total Bravo Sierra.
There are over 33,000 pilots in GS. Even if we cut that in half due to people just not logging in. And then divide by 5 to account for alts, that leaves about 3,000 players. Goons have sov in 92 systems. One reason the Goon “capital umbrella” is so effective is Goon space has a relatively high population density.
And this was basically the idea of jump fatigue and Fozzie Sov, to condense the large sprawling alliances who had many regions under their thumb…and now you want to reverse this. For what? So that you can impose what you think is the ideal degree of risk on everyone else.
Sorry that is not how a competitive sandbox MMO works.
Display your ignorance much.
- Mining does not create any ISK at all.
- Mineral prices are fine when looking at the MPI.
- PLEX prices are also fine. The increases in PLEX prices are a result of changes in PLEX. PLEX is not the same product it was years ago.
- The ISK supply for the past 4 months has been pretty goddamned flat.
Given that the real economy is growing and the ISK supply is not the bigger concern is deflation, not inflation. However, in looking at the various price indices there appears to be little worry there. Of course, CCP uses a chained Laspeyres price index which can be biased upwards, I’d rather they switched to a superlative index, but it probably wouldn’t change things much.
So exactly where do you see a problem?
You are talking about a penalty not because a ship is too powerful or a module is too good, but because of the way people are playing…in an open sandbox where the idea is for people to do what they want and we’ll see what emerges. If something is broken then fix it. Some examples have been:
- Nano-HACs. Here people were fitting HACs (and I even saw a fit for a nano-Domi) that could outrun missiles. This was not a strategy, but a problem with the mechanics of modules and ships.
- Tracking titans. Using the enormous guns on a titan to blap a frigate.
- Drone assist/remote repping.
But what you are going after is people being organized and effort. You should never punish this. This is exactly the kind of thing we want to promote. Again, going back to freighter ganking, those being ganked…they are unorganized and lazy and foolish. And we shouldn’t punish that either…those who gank them are doing a fine job.
We are talking about safety during PvE, particularly capital PvE. Safety during PvE is not merely determined by player choices. Game mechanics are relevant as well. E.g., people can’t engage you in hisec without a wardec. People cannot use bubbles in lowsec. These are game mechanics and not a player choice. Mechanics do determine safety level of different spaces to some degree.
In this game nullsec and wormholes meant to be riskier but more rewarding. And game mechanics are used to ensure that. If you disagree with me on this simplest of facts then you either don’t know much about Eve or you are juts blinded by a fanatic faith to the interests of the group you fly with. And I’m not gonna try to convince you further.
The point you’re missing (or deliberately ignoring) is that the players still have to cooperate. It doesn’t matter if CCP allows bubbles in highsec if every player in highsec agrees not to use them. That is what is happening with Goons, they have collectively agreed to join together in a farming operation instead of splintering into smaller groups, each attacking the other. And people keep joining the farming operation instead of organizing to destroy it. As long as people say “I’d rather farm than PvP” there isn’t going to be the minimum level of risk that you want.
1 Like
Exactly right.
If everyone agreed to not PvP for a day and just farm, then risk would be non-existent. Granted not everyone agrees with this, and getting such agreement is probably impossible, but this thought experiment highlights how risk is not some thing that exists in and of itself. Risk, in the game, is a product of player behavior.
Exactly, Goons, for whatever reasons, are sitting in Delve and happily farming. Why? I don’t know I’m just a line grunt, have gun will go shoot whomever the FC says to shoot.
You seem really confused here. You say you are talking about PvE, but keep on bringing in PvP. And it is only via PvP that one can impose risk on people doing PvE.
I feel like I have fallen through the looking glass here. I have argued repeatedly that people are responsible for their risk, and that they should take steps to mitigate it and now we have somebody saying, “No, that should be punished if it is too effective.” But that is exactly what we, and by this I mean not just the players but also CCP, want. We want people to interacting cooperatively as well as non-cooperatively in the game.
Further, this concept of “too effective” is really just your opinion.
You know…I think this is nonsense. It is nonsense because the concept of risk is again dependent on ones actions and choices. If I go and try to do stuff in NS all on my own it will be pretty risky to really exploit NS. However, if I and 2,000 other players agree to work collaboratively then that risk can be reduced.
NS is as risky as the people living there want it to be. If they want to work together and reduce their risk…that is fine. If they don’t, that is fine too. In fact, groups of players will seek to reduce their risk and enhance the risk of their neighbors…and that too is fine.
No. See the above. There is no independent concept of Risk™ that is aimed for.
Now you are just being a jackass.
EVE is a game of spontaneous order/emergence. The idea is to let the “stew” that is the player base create unique and interesting “structures”. To do this you need an open system that is complex and adaptive.
In short there is not some set outcome and that includes risk. Is Delve a safe place to PvE? Sure. Why? Because the residents there have endeavored to make it that way. They provide a level of security, through their efforts and actions, that they desire. One could attain this in HS as well if the people there were so inclined. They aren’t so they don’t.
So, taking your ball and going home? Okay, but you are missing completely and totally that I am making a rather philosophical nature of the game. Not simply trying to defend what Goons do. Back in the day I used to be amazed at the degree of cooperation in the Northern Coalition (no, not the alliance, but the actual coalition that spanned pretty much the entire northern portion of NS). They created a fortress in the north that was damn near unbreakable for years. Of course, they finally succumbed to internal rot and fell. But for the longest time they ruled the North almost exclusively.
- Why then do we have space restrictions? In lowsec you cant use bubbles. In hisec you need wardecs or suicide to agress people. Why do we have mechanics that ensure some certain level of risk/safety in different spaces, if all that matters if effort? Why do we have jump fatigue? Why do we have timers on structures? Why don’t we have just a wild west that purely rewards effort/organization?
Answer: Because there is more to the balance of this game than rewarding effort/organization.
- There is an objective understanding, with respect to RISK TAKEN BY PVE CAPITALS OF AN ALLIANCE. I have given the formula on how to measure that: ISK lost by PvE capital deaths / ISK farmed. I’ve only been talking about this risk, and not a general concept of “risk”.
You are such a demagogue. Don’t put words into my mouth. Stop obfuscating the discussion with this random philosophical stuff. Ofc “risk” is a relative term. There is risk in Eve, risk in life, risk on going to Mars. I am talking about a certain kind of risk. This is ■■■■■■■ tiring trying to reason with you. And then you dare talking about nonsense lol.
Go to 2.
Go to 2.
One can talk about risk taken per alliance during capital PvE. If your problem is just with the word risk, we can just name it schrisk, assign my formula to this new word, and move on.
Exactly why I argue one region shouldn’t sustain 30k players.
Fozzie Sov identified the problem well. The problem wasn’t “large alliances expanding taking up all the space”. It was “large alliances”, the blue donut. It was how people are motivated to join the largest and strongest entity because of the immense gap of capabilities and safety they can provide. The solution was horrible. The blue donut is there even stronger than ever. Even more people in null are blue to each other now. It’s just you can’t even see it on the map now because populations are concentrated in certain regions.
Lol you Goons are the prime example of knowing nothing but having a strong opinion. Here is what you do if you have 70 Rorquals in the same anomaly. 1) You mine a super in couple of hours. 2) You mine minerals to sell for super toon in another couple of hours. 3) You now have a super for yourself, or for a member, who can pursue risk-free anom running. Inflating ISK.
No. They are getting cheaper.
PLEX prices are a result of a combination of things. Many elements in this combination is related to how easy it is to have risk free farm in 70 Rorquals same anomaly. You need PLEX to maintain these accounts. You need PLEX to grow the SP so these multiboxers can get more Rorquals. Thus this rich minority increase the demand for PLEX, meanwhile PvPers etc. find it harder and harder to PLEX their accounts due to increasing cost
If you just mean the economical problem, here is where it is. A rich minority being able to risk free multibox farm tens of billions of worth minerals per hour. And inflating PLEX as a commodity that is vital to many people. And devaluing minerals for all other miners. And all this to basically serve RL income interests of people like Mittani.
There is also socio-cultural problems regarding major alliances which are partially responsible for low player retention, which I will not go into.
If your reasoning was true, then jump fatigue changes become a penalty for people organized and dedicated to move large capital fleets around. But the capability to freely move capitals was broken and harmful for the Eve ecosystem. Thus game balance required fatigue changes. Yet another example on that you are not entitled to broken mechanics no matter how much effort you think you spend, which you’ll surely choose to ignore.
Throughout this topic I argued certain game mechanics should change making nullsec PvE capital farming riskier. If mobile cyno inhibitors were revamped (one of my concrete solution proposals), players would still have to cooperate. If a region didn’t sustain 30k players, players would still have to cooperate. Perhaps even more cooperation would be fertilized. as you will need subcaps on grid more to rescue at tackled capital. So these points about cooperation and stuff mean literally nothing for this discussion. I am not against people coming together and playing together.
Sure, but why punish it…especially via Dev fiat. If other players want to do it that is one thing. But Dev fiat to punish player behavior?
Your formula is useless.
I am only talking about risk in the game. IRL there is risk from a variety of sources–e.g. weather. In game, it based on what the player does and how those around him react.
No. This is an example of reification.
Clearly that is possible and why is it a bad thing in that is the direction CCP wanted the game to go. And why is this a bad thing? Goon space is crowded, you can go there and get a fight. Poke them and they will respond.
Again…here we go through the looking glass.
On one hand people complain that NS is generally empty. You can through much of it and not see anyone or if you do they are docked up. But down in Delve we have a region where if you find a system with nobody in it that is the exception. If you go roam around down there…you will likely end up being chased around by Goons.
And it is not 30,000 players, but pilots. The actual number is probably far smaller.
Uh…no.
This map says, “No.”
The entire western portion of the map was CFC/Imperium.
The “big blue donut” was in part due to this map. It is far, far easier for two entities to negotiate and bargain than 200.
The mining made no ISK though.
And again, the ISK supply has been pretty flat for 4 months.
Again, no. The MPI shows an upward trend in mineral prices.
And are some time series…
Those are for mexallon, tritanium and nocxium respectively. They look fine to me.
Bunk, nobody needs to PLEX anything.
Nobody needs to do this.
So what? Who cares. Pay with RL money. Seriously, do you not understand opportunity cost? Why would anyone want to spend hours of their leisure time grinding for PLEX vs.paying via RL currency earned at a job. In advanced economies the typical (median) wage is about $10/hour (after taxes). So for many, after a days worth of work a player could, in theory, buy an entire years worth of subscription.
Why would I put myself on this endless treadmill when I can simply get off of it and instead have vastly more time for doing things in game I like and also more time doing stuff out of game?
PLEX prices have been fairly stable since about August FFS.
Do you even look at the market before posting? I posted the price history of PLEX in this thread.
Notice that PLEX prices started rising right around the time that PLEX went from the old 30 Day Pilot License Extension to “nuPLEX”.
Oh, and the price has been pretty stable since the end of August. Seriosuly, you might want to periodically glance at the market and the numbers to get a sense of what is really going on vs. what you think is going on.
In regards to the market you are simply wrong on just about every count.
That was actually limiting content and was leading to the map up above. You have not made even the slightest case that something like that is happening here. In fact, CCP and others noted that those changes would promote local dominance. In other words, that was the desired effect.
I’d like to add that relative to when I first started those mineral prices are awesome. Tritanium when I started was like 3 ISK/unit. Nocxium was a fraction of what it is now.
The idea that mineral prices are in free fall, declining, etc. is just not supported by the data.
Not at all.
But hey, post some thing if you think it says otherwise. But your conjecture/arm chair theorizing is worth a bucket of dog crap.
A mobile cyno inhib revamp would “punish” player behavior only as much as the jump fatigue changes did. If there is a broken mechanic, you can’t call fixing it “punishing players who make use of the broken mechanic”. A fix is a fix no matter whose interests it’s against.
Only when your ignorance is on a par with a climate change denier then my formula becomes useless. If you are ready to deny reasonable evidence just because it’s against your interests, sure its useless. Here is a detailed analysis I posted few months ago. You can just compare how much people mine with how much they lose in Rorquals, which gives you a good idea on how much risk their Rorquals are taking. Ofc there are imperfections like it takes subcap mining into account, but that’s fine because it gives the general idea of who is taking more risk and who’s taking less. It does show reasonable results. In the table, it shows that less organized alliances are taking more risk, more organized alliances are taking less risk. Just as one would expected. Thus risk here is meant to be the amount of isk you lose while dying in PvE ships per ISK you earn during PvE. That’s supposed to be lower in hisec, higher in nullsec. That’s more than reasonable. Not to you ofc, because you wanna be able to maintain your hisec level risk despite it’s game breaking.
This comment is so ignorant beyond words, that only a Goon would say that. There is no contradiction whatsover here. Nullsec is empty because everyone is moving into a couple of regions like Delve. Naturally people complain about it. And then content is denied because you use broken mechanics to defend these people. Naturally people complain about it as well. People are perfectly consistent in both complaints.
I just told you in my last post that you won’t notice the blue donut on the map after Fozziesov because regions are less homogeneous in population now. That’s just plain ovious in the MER’s. And now you’re showing me the map, for what exactly? The fact is more number of nullsec dwellers is blue to each other compared to even before Fozziesov. You can’t see that on the map because people are stacked into a few regions. But you can’t deny this and also be proud of how you stacked 30k people in the same region. That’s a first in Eve history. That’s -the- blue donut. Not the map.
So it’s a coincidence super prices are dropping, while value comes mostly from the minerals mined? There is a downward trend since the Rorqual changes. Monthly changes are irrelevant. And if mineral prices are not getting even lower, that’s because you are not selling the minerals but building stuff. With unfairly earned minerals, using broken mechanics, while CCP turning a blind eye. That too is a devaluation of other miners’ work, because exploiting broken mechanics you can build much more than other miners. That’s very similar to how botting is a devalutation of any iskmakers work. When people can abuse and exploit broken mechanics to do an activity, it takes away the meaning in doing the activity for others.
You don’t know everyone’s situation. For example I’m not allowed to take on extra work due to my student visa. And I make 1.5b/hr during PvE. So I want to PLEX my 10 accounts. I can’t pay for my 10 accounts with RL income at all anyway. Its kinda ridiculous when I’m telling you you’re inflating my PLEX via broken mechanics, and all you can tell me is to earn RL money instead. The reasonable thing would be denying that you’re inflating my PLEX. You’re doing that as well, but I don’t see the purpose of the former point at all.
Dude you are seriously challenged critical-thinking wise. Think about it. I argue that you’re inflating PLEX unfairly via usage of broken mechanics? What did these mechanics I talked about include so far? Being able to cover most of your PvE capitals with capital umbrella, being able to effortlessly drop your capitals at any friendly PvE capital in distress, and being able to mine in the same anom with 60+ Rorquals. I argued these capabilities of yours are causal factors (but not the sole cause) of the PLEX inflation.
Now, you are giving me statistics since AUGUST 2017, and argue PLEX is not inflating. Did you have access to these broken mechanics since August 2017? No, you had access to that since you moved into Delve. You moved in Delve late summer 2016. So, if a sane person wanted to investigate the causal relation between your abuse of nullsec capital PvE and PLEX prices, what time interval they would look at? They would look at changes in PLEX price since the last summer. How much did it change since the last summer? I don’t know how much exactly, but it looks like between +75% and +100%.
By August 2017 most of the inflation caused by you already occurred. Because even with your usage of broken mechanics it’s bound to hit an equilibrium somewhere. So you either have a severe lack of critical thinking if you show me prices since August 2017, or you just purposefully ignore facts due to that they are heavily against your interests. Again, classic climate change denier behavior.
I did make the case though. You just like to ignore it. You’re not even arguing against it. You’re literally ignoring it. If we agree that content is something that matters, it’s pretty obvious I argued that your usage of PvE capitals do limit content that’s supposed to emerge in nullsec. People lose less ships overall, and people kill less ships overall, because you stacked 30k people in the same place and made them risk free farmers and passive builders. Because some dude likes to make RL dollars off Eve, and the format you have is the best for his cash flow.
Well there is no way to determine whether hes afk or not so bait for a while and see what happens. Get it now?
1 Like
WTF? Seriously, you are trying to take something abstract and which does not exist and make it concrete. You are like those people who say, “The market does…” The market does nothing. It actually does not exist. People doe things.
Can you not be such a blazing jackass?
If that is what you call detailed… 
So what? People working together reduce their risk…what is the problem? Oh yeah, you think it is some how “unfair”. I read that reddit post and here is what it says to me, “I think it is unfair that some groups are better at reducing their risk than others.”
And I see you are still being a jackass.
The point is you go to most of NS and it is empty and people complain. The on region where this is not true and here you show up and whine. And never mind that this is exactly the kind of thing one should do to deal with AFK campers. The irony here is strong.
So grouping up, coordinating, organizing and playing smart is a broken mechanic? Whatever.
You are just being a truculent fool now. GSF does not have 30,000 people in it. You have to account for people who have left the game and alt accounts. FFS, I have 3 accounts and between those three accounts I have 5 characters in GSF. Just dividing 30,000 by 5 reduces it to 6,000 people. If the number of people who actually play vs. do not is 2 to 1 then it is 3,000 people…you are off by an order of magnitude.
As for the “blue donut” you completely missed my point. That when the map is dominated by essentially 2 coalitions it is easy for those 2 coalitions to negotiate and reduce their risk compared to when you have 50 or 100 people to negotiate with. So the map, or more importantly, that there was a very small number of entities controlling space that was stultifying the game.
I just don’t care. I really don’t and you shouldn’t either. Nor should CCP.
Don’t care.
Don’t care.
Don’t care.
Yes, but PLEX prices have been stable for 2 months so…WITF are you talking about? And the last increase in PLEX is remarkably timed with change in PLEX. That is the increase in the price of PLEX has more to do with what CCP has done than what Goons are doing.
The price has been stable. I don’t know what else to say. The price has been around 3-3.2 million ISK/PLEX for 2 months. Where is this increasing price you are talking about?
Thing is the most recent increase in the price of PLEX fits with the change in PLEX from the old 30 day PLEX to the new 500 PLEX for 30 days of game time.
You are so wrong here. The price of PLEX since 2016 has not been one of steady increase, it has been one of periodic incrases (and a decrease) and also periods of extended price stability. Your narrative just does not fit. In fact, your statements leads me to conclude that you have not even looked at the data. You are spewing nonsense based on what you think is true or want to be true vs. what is actually true.
You have not looked at the data nor even considered anything other than your own pet theory.
- The ISK supply has been roughly flat for the last 3 months.
- PLEX prices have not been increasing appreciably since August.
- The last price increase corresponds to the change in PLEX announced on March 2017.
- Prior to the last incrase in PLEX prices PLEX prices were stable at around 2 million ISK/PLEX.
- Prior to that price increase the price decreased 25%.
In short you are full of fecal matter. You have nothing to support your own pet theory and we see that in reality you want CCP to nerf people’s game play to benefit yourself.
A large alliance like Goons working together to build things? Sounds like they are prepairing for war, which usually is a good thing for the game…
I’m not willing to read through her drivel, so i gotta ask you instead:
does olmeca fit the “totalitarian” type?
- irrational
- sees himself as the good guy
- everyone’s a victim
- everyone who thinks otherwise is a bad person
- facts are personal attacks
- uses fallacies and or nonsense, lies and passive aggressive behaviour
You know i’m looking at this from my very own perspective, so… thanks in advance!
1 Like
That’s an adorable argument on semantics you two are clogging this thread up with, feel free to get back on topic or start arguing via private message because you’re sure not discussing cloaks anymore.
CCP Falcon Community Manager (21 Sep 2017)
There are no plans to address AFK cloaking at this time.
2 Likes
If you want to rat safely go do it in high sec.
If you are in a place where anyone can attack you, you chose to be there, probably because it is more rewarding, so it is only natural it should be more risky.
This thread had gotten derailed quite a bit. Given that, and the already somewhat redundant nature, I am going to close this thread. Please understand that the issue of AFK cloaking has been addressed many times on this forum.
2 Likes