FYI if anyone is wondering why there is a sudden surge of brand new players who have never posted in the forums before, voicing their support for this idea, you should know that Sabus Narian has gone around begging his corpmates and alliancemates to take a look at this post.
The problem isnt with ganking with capitals, it will be that Capitals will be immune to ganks. I had this discussion with Beasts of Revelations here(CCPlease Reimagine Capships - #26 by Solonius_Rex) but essentially, it boils down to this.
Supers already have such high EHP and defensive capabilities, that they will be near-impossible, or atleast not feasable, to gank in highsec. Even fully tanked jump freighters dont get ganked a lot, because of the high amount of characters needed to take down these ships.
The whole point of EVE is that you are never safe, as long as you are undocked. And allowing capitals is antithetical to this core aspect of EVE. Decreasing the EHP, or increasing the cost of Capitals and supers, will not change this, unless the EHP of a super is so drastically decreased to the point that they lose all meaning as supers and titans, which essentially means you are breaking the game.
The only way to balance this, is if Captials that are in Hisec, are constantly being targetted by Faction Police, and/or are in a permanent suspect timer status. Im sure you wouldnt agree to this, though.
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Thats not even close to the reason why they removed caps from hisec.
The fact that the people who came to show you support, are simply saying âSounds cool, I agreeâ or a variation of that, without actually explaining why they agree, is a demonstration to the fact that they have no idea what they are talking about. You cannot balance the game around people who have no understanding or experience with the aspect of the game you wish to change.
Thanks to the introduction of Keepstars, you can purchase and enjoy, no matter how short lived your enjoyment may be, any capital and supercapital ship of all types, anywhere in low and nullsec. Yes, Lowsec. The section of space where no one owns the system, and is free from Nullsec politics or drama.
The Basgerin Keepstar alone is full of contracts of Supers. Lowsec is full of contracts of carriers and dreadnoughts. Nothing, except for ISK, is stopping people from purchasing these ships and flying them around lowsec and nullsec, which, may i remind you, outnumber Hisec systems 4 to 1.
There is no shortage of people and groups destroying structures, because most corporations will go for the cheapest option of structures to place, if structures are required. Case and Point, how many Keepstars are in Hisec?
What?
No. It wont. It will encourage curbstomping of new players in frigates and cruisers, being wtfpwned by 1-2 carriers shooting at them from 1000 KM away.
Alphas cant fly them. New players cant afford them. Hisec gives them a level playing field by restricting ships to things that both new players and Alphas can, for all intents and purposes, fly with relative ease and cost. You are proposing a mechanism that would destroy this balance.
Again, nothing is preventing me from jumping my 3 supers to Basgerin and selling them. Nothing is preventing a person in hisec, from purchasing a Super in Basgerin via contract, free of scamming and in relatively total safety. This âproblemâ you have created, doesnt exist.
Most nullsec alliances have a policy of non-super proliferation for use in selling and making a profit to entities outside their alliances. It doesnt take a genius to realize, that providing weapons and arms to your enemy, is a bad idea.
But beyond that, the lack of demand for supers in places like Basgerin, the long-standing existance of contracts that require people to post in the Market forums in order to stir up interest because no one seems to buy them, shows why your idea is bad.
Supers require a large support fleet in order to operate. They are very powerful ships, and make juicy targets, and therefore, in a situation where anyone and everyone can shoot at them, for however long they like, balances this problem out, and necessitates the requirement for a support fleet to be nearby in order for the super to both apply, and protect itself from opposing forces.
This doesnt exist in hisec.
In hisec, being in a supercarrier in an NPC corp, means that no one can freely attack you for any duration of time longer than 20 seconds. You no longer require a support fleet. You no longer require help. You no longer require anything, but yourself. It removes the risk out of hisec, while providing a large reward.
Yes, and the opposite is true as well.
Rorquals are now currently able to gather and mine the equivalent of 4-5 hulks per rorqual, while providing invulnerability to other mining ships in the same fleet.
Capital sheild/armor repairers and Capital shield/armor extenders give massive boosts to HP and EHP, respectively.
An inherent structure resist buff of 33% without any modules.
Modules providing sensor lock ranged of 1000KM+ and providing near-instant locking of even smaller ships like cruisers, and very fast locking of frigates.
Specialized fighters utilizing bursts of speed and damage that can deal high amounts of damage to small targets while also being able to activate micro jump drives to escape being destroyed.
And many, many more.
Clearly the bad outweigh the good. None of these help new players.
Why does every ship in the game need to be ganked? You can already fit some fittings that easily give you 600k ehp in say a damnation, should they not be allowed to be in highsec because of the near impossibility of being ganked? In most MMORPG games, the largest ships whether space or pirate game are very hard to kill, the balance is the price, and drawbacks of getting/keeping them.
Yes it is
The game is already unbalanced, current state in nullsec can attest to that. You will never have perfect balance, but you can have even chances of competition.
But not highsec, why should highsec be excluded from end game content?
Some people prefer to live in highsec, whether because of gameplay or casual interests, saying you can buy them in lowsec is irrelevant, if you cannot take them into highsec.
And that is good, if there are few keepstars then you need an alt or some other means of storing your supercarrier.
Small ships can kill fighters, and yes, a t1 fit frigate will have difficulty killing a carrier, one costs a lot more than the other. Price=performance.
Again not in highsec, demand occurs from highsec residents, if I donât live in lowsec I donât buy them currently.
Some do, many others could care less. And nothing is stopping you from making an alt, sending say 500B isk, and buying a bunch of hulls and asset safety them down before they catch you. The reason why there is no demand is because its lowsec, let them into highsec and demand skyrockets, your argument is flawed. And the flaw is no endless sites at the level like nullsec, and you are effectively in a tomb until you find a keepstar to dock, or you have an alt to switch out in a POS if they can still be deployed.
New players can reach those goals easily now with injectors, why should they be punished for wanting to remain in highsec, which the majority do?
Because EVE was designed around that concept.
No, because they can still be ganked. Anshars with 1 million EHP get ganked. Even then, it takes around 20-30 gankers, but they get ganked.
The problem persists when you consider the difference between the EHP of Supercarriers and the current King of EHP in highsec, Jump freighters.
An Anshar, zero implants and full buffer, has around 1 million EHP.
A Hel, zero implants and full buffer, has around 13 MILLION EHP.
Thats 13 times the EHP.
Takes around 20, 30 Gankers to take down an anshar.
Times that by 13. Thats atleast 260 to an upwards of 400 players required to kill a single supercarrier. Has there ever even been a conflict of that size in hisec in the span of 5 minutes, let alone 300 people on a single side, in hisec, in the span of even an hour? If so, how many times did it occur? And you want this to have to happen every single time a buffer fit supercarrier passes through hisec? Are you kidding me?
In most MMORPG games, you dont have only 20 seconds to kill a target before being killed. In most MMORPG games, the ganker doesnt lose every single one of his gear when he dies.
And most important of all, most MMORPG games havent lasted as a subscription based game for this long. If you want to go to another MMORPG that is more like Most other MMORPGs, go ahead. This is EVE. Stop comparing apples and oranges.
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Yes, and the point of changes is to move towards greater balance, not less.
Two failures here.
First, Hisec is a location. Players can exit hisec and move to other sections of space. And this is in sync with, what you deem as âMost other MMORPG gamesâ. Most other MMORPG games do not have end-game content in their starter areas.
Secondly, Capitals and Super Capitals are not end-game content in EVE. All ships in EVE are tools that fill a role. And much like how a frigate can kill a battleship without the battleship being able to land a single hit, the fact that a ship has a higher skillpoint value or cost does not mean it is better or stronger than another ship. EVE is a sandbox game, and the end-game content is what you make it.
That is no more irrelevant than saying that Concord only exists in Hisec, and that a player who prefers to live in nullsec cannot experience the full protection and safety of Concord.
There is, and will always be things that are only available and can only be experienced in certain locations. WH space is different from Hisec. Nullsec space is different from Hisec. Lowsec is different from Hisec. It is no more âunfairâ or âIrrelevantâ for someone to be unable to experience something in Hisec, that they can experience in Nullsec or Lowsec, anymore than how a Nullsec or Lowsec player cannot rely on the same mechanics, and benefits, that exist in Hisec.
Not sure what this is in response to.
What a stupid thing to say.
A single frigate can kill a battleship. There are many, many youtube videos showing this. This is because battleships and frigates are fundementally different and serve a different role, and even though battleships cost more on a substantial scale, being tens of times more expensive, their weapons cannot track, and therefore cannot effectively hit a frigate.
Answer this question for me. And read the question carefully before answering.
If you have the ISK, what prevents you from buying a super, right now?
First off, i never said demand wouldnt increase. Of course it would. Demand always increases when theres a legal exploit that destroys the balance of the game.
Secondly, I never once talked about running sites in Supers. I never once said anything about being easily dockable. So your flaw is against a non-existent argument that i havent made.
The problems with Supers is simple. They are essentially unkillable in hisec, while providing a platform for easily killing opponents with safety, with little risk.
Why would you think this would benefit new players and smaller corps? Again, new players cant afford supers. Alphas cant fly them. Smaller corps cant field them in large numbers. What benefit is there to new players? What benefit is there to Alphas? How are they killable with even moderate difficulty by a group of, 20, 30, 40 characters without a wardec or suspect flag?
What have you proposed that would even remotely begin to balance these problems? Do you want Supercarriers to have the EHP equivalent to Battleships, in the 200, 300k EHP range? What is your proposal to offset the inherent benefits from fielding a super?
Seriously.
Do you know how many injectors it will take to get into a carrier? And you think a New Player will have the billions, tens of billions it will need to take them from being a 1 month, 2 month old char to flying in a carrier? Not to mention the skills required to use fighters?
How delusional do you have to be to think this?
Here is my alt, with 37 million skillpoints. It will take her 100 days to skill into level 1 minmattar carrier.
And youre saying that youre expecting even a moderate sized amount of new players to buy skill injectors and inject into carriers? Can we please stick to reality?
Im all for it bring Caps to Highsec !
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You are talking to an idiot. His corp was just kicked out of null sec for allowing spies to facilitate 37billion ISK worth of awoxing, he has no idea what capitals are actually used for.
You will never convince him of this bud, donât waste your time, he doesnât understand why capitals are not allowed in high sec, all he envisions is his new player corp mining in Rorqs and being a capital force in high sec so they can ârun highsecâ to their liking.
I gave up trying to make him understand this.
There are two capital ships in Hisec. Only 2 people have them, and have license numbers for them. @Max_Singularity and @Chribba. I am content that they are the only two who have them, seeing as though they cannot use them for combat purposes.
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I forgot about Max, how could I forget him!
you shall do 15 hail marys and repent for forgetting the space pope 
I rather like Maxâs plan to allow capitals in hisec, if only for non combat purposes.
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dammit okay 
Then flag the pilot and kill his ship, you donât need to be able to blow up every ship, and several hundred catalysts could kill a light tanked nyx, its more work than a badger naturally.
Then get around 200 taloses, assuming by your figure a supercarrier of around 10-20 million ehp. It will happen rarely, you donât need ganks every 5 minutes, only as much as gankers want to gank.
Only reason this game lasted this long was because of CCPâs good stewardship, wardec changes, releases of content for free etc.
How do you have greater balance if highsec is limited to sub caps while nullsec gets the full spectrum of ships?
Interesting, then why donât nullsecers move to highsec, and vice versa? Each area of the game is tailored for different play styles. I disagree, the grind to the titan is end game content for a lot of people, in a game without an end game.
I disagree, wormholes are limited by mass, yet the only difference between the gates is an arbitrary limitation because people complain that highsec players should be driven out of highsec in order to experience high end ships and other such features.
Meaning you canât dock willy nilly in a supercarrier, you have to have a keepstar, so it is somewhat balanced, higher power, but more inconvenience.
Then by that logic supercarriers serve a mothership role, they should be allowed to serve that role in highsec.
Firstly you can kill them if the pilot is flagged, secondly the pilot cannot kill willy nilly, remember highsec has concord which auto kills you if you shoot something that is not flagged. So no, they wonât be killing everyone, the first corvette they shoot without authorization means bye bye super. If you really want to nerf supers in order to make them more vulnerable I have no problem with that, so long as its across the game.
Sure, he can buy plex, be a good market trader etc. Not everyone takes years to get 20 billion isk, some buy there way there, some earn it in game.
Technically we left without a kick but keep assuming. What are capitals used for then if you think no one else knows about them?
Yes, you do. As i said before, this is the core theme around EVE online.
The Devs are on my side on this one. Not yours. This is a statement of fact.
This demonstrates why your argument fails. Simply stating that you can bring in 200, 300, 1000 Taloses to gank a single ship in hisec, demonstrates why these ships do not belong in hisec. CCP understands Balance, you do not. Simple as that.
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Because no one in hisec gets capitals. Thats how.
I agree. So move to null or low if you want to play with capitals.
Problem solved.
You can move capitals through wormholes too, so you are wrong. But I dont know what you are disagreeing with, since you refuse to refer to what part of my argument you are responding to.
Again, no idea what you are responding to, and since you have a tendancy to argue something i never claimed, I dont know what you are talking about.
Do you not know how to quote someone? Its really simple. Just highlight their text, and then click the âquoteâ button that pops up.
What is a âMothership roleâ?
My question was:
How are they killable with even moderate difficulty by a group of, 20, 30, 40 characters without a wardec or suspect flag?
Your answer is:
you can kill them if the pilot is flagged
Congratulations on demonstrating that your argument fails.
Sure. He can spend 4000 dollars and get skill injectors.
Now youre just being dishonest.
Im really glad you told your corp mates about this thread. You are looking like an idiot.
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Let me re-iterate a question I asked, because you seemed to have refused to answer it.
If you have the ISK, what prevents you from buying a super, right now?
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Because if he buys a super in low sec it would be the absolute proof that he has been stealing ISK from his members all year long (which I have proof of, literally a screenshot of him and rachelk withdrawing billions from the corp wallet).
Honestly mate you are wasting your time, he is a high sec carebear who has no idea what low/null/wh space really is or why its balanced the way it is.