I never said or claimed t1 hulls were irrelevant, not even in comparison to pirate frigates. My entire attempt to link killmails was to provide evidence to the contrary, that t1 hulls can and do offer resistance and can do so at a substantially lower cost in comparison to what they are confronting.
Of course not! If I see a pirate frig in a medium complex, guess what, I’m not going to gather together a group of willing and (hopefully) capable t1 frig friends. I’m going to show up, even by myself, with a RLML Caracal or whatever is at hand that will fit and get him out, especially if it’s a war target. The same principle applies to the small. I’m going in with a nasty destroyer or an assault frigate.
If the option is there and the means as well, I will definitely ship up. Why would I not? Why go through the hassle of giving every individual pilot a job and instructions if nothing is really at stake and simply going to the garage for another vessel solves the problem?
You ban the hull from the novice and this kind of mentality is going to pervade the entire question of this line of ships. They will simply not be used. Especially pirate hulls, when a cheaper AF will do better in almost every circumstance and without bling.
IOW, you acknowledge that AFs/destroyers outclass pirate frigates and that’s a problem, but you don’t see a problem with pirate frigates doing the same to T1 frigates in the “T1 frigates only” sites.
Statistically speaking there’s a lesser power gap between pirate frigs and assault frigs than there is between tech 1 frigs and pirate frigs.
But you expect tech1 frigs to either team up or die, but are not willing to hold pirate frigs to remotely the same standard when it comes to facing assault frigs…even though pirate frigs are capable of beating them solo…and that’s pre- speed nerf assault frigs.
And the tech1 frig is far more important here. If pirate frigs become irrelevant, the player at least has other choices. If tech1 frigs are never relevant then where the hell are players supposed to start?
Sorry, but there are a few ■■■■ fits in there, and a few garmurs pinning afterburner ships and slower armor fit ships. Not the best line up for your case. The rest are countered pretty hard, like the DD vs the jag with fury light missiles on. But that was a bad fit too. 10mn thrasher with medium extender and weakest guns; the jag with the dual prop prob just got neuted before he could turn his ADC on, sadly, which is what I would have normally done against anything but a neuting ship. I wouldn’t have waited for my ASB to hit reload. Probably the only fight in there worth pointing out, but still not the best example. He repped through the damage, most likely.
It still demonstrates pretty well that the gap between pirate frigs and assault frigs is far smalller then that between tech1 frigs and pirate frigs. So you can see why (if you’re not being obtuse) people think pirate ships don’t belong in a novice.
I don’t agree. EHP wise they are just in line with navy hulls, with exception to the worm. Isk wise, they are way above what you can find in the small, sans t2 destroyers, but the gap in potential is in favor of the destroyers and AF’s a majority of the time. They can be countered just as easily and are often predictable in their fitting. People just don’t bring those counters or prepare for such an encounter. You are frankly just reducing the high end quality of pvp that can be found in the novice, because you want to treat new players with baby gloves, instead of teaching them how to fly smarter. You’re just hurting the ecosystem and making fights a meh experience at best in what can be found in novices in the future and not making pirate frigs worth bling when an AF can shut them down while even t2 fit. A properly fit destroyer will completely melt them.
Have all my words been lost on you?! Don’t you see me in those killmails using t1 hulls against pirate vessels? Killing pirate frigs IS the high quality pvp that I mean and have been talking about.
Because if I’m going to fight in a small, I’ll save some isk, put away the pirate frig and pick up an AF instead. If pirate frigs aren’t allowed in novices, why would I ever use them instead of a dessie or an AF? poof you see what happened there with pirate frigates if you get your wish? They just become expensive loss mails. Why fly harder and smarter with more money in the pot when I can fly cheaper and get the same effect with something else that is eligible for the arena of a small and is even easier to fly?
I don’t know, but you seem to have zero problem with the same fate happening to T1 frigates since there’s no reason to ever take a T1 frigate over a pirate frigate except masochistic desire to nerf yourself and prove you can still win.
If I do this in a pirate frig against a t1 dessie and die, i’m just called stupid. But if I do it in a t1 frigate against the alpha type in the arena … I guess i’ll settle for masochistic.
They are out there because of novices. They take on whatever is out there because they can. You remove novices, you limit the pyramid of likely targets, and therefore will surely see them used LESS often, not more.
and why again, a frigate should be “worth to bling” for PvP scenario?
I mean since forever the PvP 101 stated: don’t use bling ships, think of cost effectiveness first.
Don’t get me wrong, maybe I am old ■■■■ that has been out of loop for PvP standards, but if most communities centered around some forms of PvP starts their courses for newbies with “make your fits cheap” and points to cheap hulls with at utter most of expense - t2 fitting. Then heading off and meeting against fully blinged out pirate hull at the first novice site seems like set up for a bummer. And a kind of bummer that reduces amount of fresh blood actually entering PvP for good.
Buuut I suppose “quality fights” of swarming pirate hulls with t1 fleets is more important than actually retaining more people to the thing all together
