An Open Letter to CCP from Current and Former CSM Members on the "Prospector Pack"

[Jumpdrive]

@Maverick_Furdom

By selling fitted ships, regardless of their use, or lack thereof, you drop the value of said ships to near zero.

No, it’s the value of the BPOs, BPCs and the time/ISK investments made by industrialists that may drop to zero, not the ships themselves.

Basically what selling ships by the company does, is set a Maximum price for those ships. Right now it doesn’t do much yet, but should CCP start offering more competitive priced ship packages and more often, that’s when industrialists will see their old investments evaporate.

You can see something similar happened with the BPO changes in the industry patch. Faction hulls can also be bought with LP currency, which then also set a maximum price for ships. The industrialists can never compete with the old LP pricing, at the new increased build costs, rendering their previous research worthless.

[Verlyn]

@Daichi_Yamato

when they celebrated or condoned previous compromises.

Which are ?

@Daichi_Yamato

No. Since long before that.

Elaborate.

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Verlyn

Which are ?

Abyss space/arenas/instances
SP selling
Ship selling
War eligibility
AWOXing nerfs
Plex vault

That’s just off the top of my head.
I’m not sure what you want me to elaborate further on.

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Daichi_Yamato

Au contrare.

If we assume everyone has the same shopping basket then you may be right. But that’s extremely unlikely. Much more likely is that a grinder (someone who buys Plex for isk) trades in different items to an instant-gratification-player (someone who sells Plex for isk). So when these two players exchange their purchasing power it has an effect on the supply and demand of the items each types of player usually trade in.

Adding more plex to the game changes nothing about the exchange of goods, except the ratio of plex to goods. It does not change the amount of goods, it just means more plex is needed to buy the same amount of goods.

Plex is just a currency and is separate from the ingame economy as you cannot do anything with plex in the ingame economy except:

• exchange for other goods/ISK
• buy items from NES

As such, introducing more plex in packs sold by CCP does not affect the ingame economy apart from a slight change in exchange ratio of plex versus other goods, and reducing the price of NES items.

Let’s take a hypothetical scenario: if CCP would give every owner of PLEX a hundred times more PLEX while also increasing the NES prices a hundredfold, how would the economy change?

Simple: plex value compared to the rest of the ingame goods would likely go down a hundredfold. Where you would currently need X plex to buy a ship, you now would need a hundred times X plex. Apart from that, no real change to the economy.

Now let’s look at a scenario where CCP gives every owner of Retrievers a hundred times more Retrievers, how would the economy change?

First, the massive stockpiles of Retrievers would mean prices of those ships go down to the point that producing more is senseless, and people will either reprocess spares (big influx of minerals into the economy competing with miners) or insurance fraud them to get some value out of them (isk inflation).

While neither scenario is likely to ever happen (again - PLEX already has been split a 500fold some time ago) , I hope it makes clear to you that there is a big difference in effect on the economy whether CCP creates more ships versus creating PLEX out of nothing.

[Kenrailae]

Daichi, most of these aren’t even on the same graph.

The war system was completely borked. Maybe it’s not the best solution, but it was completely busted. It’s also a change to gameplay, not direct monetization of ingame assets. Same with the awoxing nerfs and abyssal space.

Now, the abyssal space in particular is a WHOLE nother case of worms that needs dealt with, but even that still isn’t direct monetization of in game assets.

The SP selling, yes, players were pretty contentious about that back then, and with the log in campaigns, and with the alpha injectors and so forth. But, as each of those came out, CCP hadn’t thrown away the entirety of the trust between the dev team and the player base. Most of us still don’t like it, especially with all these stupid log in campaigns, a sure sign of a struggling dev team. You certainly wouldn’t hear that many voices complaining if the log in campaigns went away. Most likely anyway.

As for the ship selling, those were all tiny, inconsequential ships given out by the NPE anyway. Yes, it was still monetization of assets, but it was a much, much smaller step/give. The reason this one sticks out so hard is because the retriever is a big step up from that, in a time where there is 0 trust between the players and dev team, and also is a clear marker that CCP will do this some more.

But these two things were done in a different environment, and that’s where the real stick is. How many years of removing play styles and pushing people away from the game, only to finally make some decent improvements with compression and turning back some of the surgical strike stuff, Only ONLY to turn back around and do this? Grains of sand in a heap, and this is that grain of sand on the top that a lot of people aren’t willing to accept anymore. Should we have been more vocal about some of these things in the past? Maybe. Maybe not. But that was the past. This is right now.

[Daichi_Yamato]

Introducing more Plex (via sales), or doing anything with Plex supply/demand/prices whatever, does not just change the exchange rate of isk and Plex. It has an effect on the purchasing power of Plex buyers and Plex sellers (for isk). And because these two types of players unlikely trade in the same items it then has an effect on the supply and demand of the products they each trade in. And even their behaviour.

Quick example, if Plex was gone tomorrow, what would all the Plex buyers do with their excess wealth? What would all the Plex sellers do now that they have less wealth? And remember they don’t partake in the same activities and they don’t buy/sell the same items.

@Kenrailae

Daichi, most of these aren’t even on the same graph

I’m not criticising anyone’s argument against monetisation. I in fact fully support such arguments.

I’m pointing the finger at all those charlatans claiming to be outraged by the compromise of ‘core gameplay’.

[Kenrailae]

@Daichi_Yamato

I’m not criticising anyone’s argument against monetisation. I in fact fully support such arguments.

I’m pointing the finger at all those charlatans claiming to be outraged by the compromise of ‘core gameplay’.

Okay. Apparently I needed to follow your and Verlyn’s quote chain up one more post. I don’t disagree with what you’re saying in general(Eve has - like every other game - seen steady slide away from their core designs and towards corporate profiteering) but I would still put forward that the game and player/dev team relationship was very different when a lot of these changes were implemented. And some of them, like the old war dec system, were just completely broken and something had to be changed about them. Heck, as much as it killed my playstyle, even I’m not so hypocritical as to say the game was perfectly fine with endless cyno chaining. Nah, that crap was broken. So yes, maybe people have tolerated violations of the game design in the past. But they’re allowed to change their minds, right? Granted, they should also be informed before making a decision, too.

[Koyaan_i_Squatchi]

signed

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Daichi_Yamato

Quick example, if Plex was gone tomorrow,

Of course the removal of plex has large effects on the economy, as plex enables people to trade time for wealth - if you were to remove plex this is no longer (legally) possible.

We’re not talking about the removal of a currency from the game though, we’re talking about removing or adding a certain amount of currency.

And while changing the amount of a currency will impact the value of that currency compared to goods in the game, it does not change anything about the availability of goods in the game. It just means someone needs a different amount of plex to buy the existing goods. The economy would be unaffected after introducing more plex, apart from the exchange rates of plex to other goods.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

@Kenrailae

No, I’m not. This isn’t a sides thing. Stop trying to make it one.

Yes, you are.

Also. You are the one making this a “sides thing” by willfully misunderstanding the intent of my words. Look me up when you want to stop being a reflexive Brisc apologist and desire a productive discussion.

[Kenrailae]

@Foggy_Bernstein

You are more on my side of this issue than Briscs, brother.

Declares sides.

Says he’s not declaring sides.

Claims he’s after a productive conversation.

Get back under the bridge.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

@Aiko_Danuja

Foggy is a loser, irl

There’s not much I can say to that that won’t get me a ban. I don’t have a pet ISD like you and yours.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

@Kenrailae

Claims he’s after a productive conversation.

Get back under the bridge.

Obviously you’re not looking for discussion.

So who’s the troll?

[Emiko_P_eng]

Hi All

I agree with the OP!

Myself, I am disappointed but unfortunately not surprised.
After being bought by a blatant Pay to Win company, it was inevitable that they would have to tow the line sooner or later and increase their gouging of players to please their new owners.

My only hope it stops here and doesn’t evolve into:

Want to get into 1 to 1 Arena Battleship fights NOW! - then go over to the Store and buy your Battleship and the appropriate Skills for only £120.

EVE Online was the best and toughest Sandbox Game in the World. I have a nasty feeling that title is now on a slippery slope.

[Kenrailae]

I’ve had plenty of conversation in this thread. Every other post from you seems to be about how you’re jealous because senpai Brisc isn’t paying you enough attention.

There is nothing to be gained from spending anymore keyboard clacks on you. Goodbye.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

@Kenrailae

There is nothing to be gained from spending anymore keyboard clacks on you.

What if I promise to worship at the altar of your Lord Brisc?

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Foggy_Bernstein do you happen to know what happened with @Mr_Epeen ?

He disappeared a little before you showed up, have you met him on his way out?

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Foggy_Bernstein

What if I promise to worship at the altar of your Lord Brisc?

Your worship is accepted.

[Foggy_Bernstein]

Anyone who doesn’t know I’m an Epeen alt is a nobody and can safely be ignored.

[Mr_Epeen]

I approve of this post. Have a

Mr Epeen