Any chance of station walking ever again?


(Cypherous) #101

Like what, it would still need to actually exist in game

Won’t happen because NPC null will remain NPC null, i mean you can theorycraft ideas but atleast make them somewhat realistic within the scope of the game

It wouldn’t be an FPS in stations anyway, thats what Dust/Nova were for, because otherwise you don’t have a lore connection and you could easily die permanently outside of your pod as the tech that clones you is part of the capsule

Thing is anything meaningful would be partly compulsory, otherwise its not actually meaningful, the only intel thing you could move would be agent location services but even then thats a fairly pointless move to just end up with a more bloated game client, for them to waste development time and money on WiS it would have to serve a valid function that meant something otherwise its not likely to get a greenlight, even nova has been basically shelved indefinitely


(DeMichael Crimson) #102

I know what all happened during the Incarna release, I was there. There was a lot more happening at that time besides just a botched game expansion. I do agree it definitely wasn’t the Ambulation that CCP had promised us.

In 2006 this was previewed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzZRRPPw_QE
Then in 2008 we saw this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwFB272ckvk
In 2011 we got this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqwQecPcqpM
What players expected was this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p59dPTc25U8
When they actually wanted this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX6b1-4crt4

The 18 months you’re referring to was mainly CCP switching to new Carbon graphics engine which caused all the previous work on Ambulation to be discarded. At that time CCP had a small team working on Incarna while the majority of resources was put towards Dust514 and World Of Darkness.

The rushed Incarna expansion and Captains Quarters with no gameplay content was simply to facilitate CCP’s ‘Greed Is Good’ cash grab by selling vanity items with Micro-transactions, bypassing player production. The ability to opt out of entering the CQ along with optimizing the CQ code was quickly implemented after Incarna was released.

I guess I didn’t express it correctly. After the botched Incarna Expansion, every time CCP went to work on Avatar Game Play Content, it was met with vocal resentment and opposition by players who keep associating it with the 2011 Summer Of Rage and mass unsubs. The constant hostility along with technical issues of inability to have more than 2 Avatars present without crashing the game is why WiS became abandoned and DOA.


(DeMichael Crimson) #103

There were lot’s of ideas for Avatar Game Play content in multiple threads posted in the past.

Eve Online was created with the intention of becoming a Virtual Reality set in a Futuristic SyFy Space Environment. That means more than just space ships and for that to happen, CCP would have to add Avatar Game play content. I’m talking about more than just walking in station with mini-games. It could be running around with guns and knives fighting against other players or NPC’s like Sansha and deadly CONCORD police androids, constantly looking over your shoulder as an enemy player enters the cantina (Han shot first) or when traveling down dark dangerous corridors deep within the station. It should definitely involve clone death and have rebirth alcoves available. Basically a toned down version of DUST 514 PvP action with PvE content mixed in.

Personally I wouldn’t care if it had no affect on events happening in Eve’s space game. If needed, just have it be tied in with Sansha Incursions or something. Players could fleet up to gain control of stations locked down by an Elite group of Sansha NPC’s or just pit teams of players against each other to gain control of stations. Doesn’t really matter as long as the content is fun.

I think it would be nice to have some fun content to engage in that didn’t really matter to events happening in space. But hey, this is Eve and Internet Spaceships is serious business, right ?


(Cypherous) #104

Citation needed

I don’t ever remember them detailing that as the end goal, ambulation was only started as a means to test tech for the WoD MMO they were looking to create after they acquired White Wolf, if they had never gone ahead with that purchase then we wouldn’t even be having this conversation

Combat in stations was never something they stated they wanted, mainly because the lore of the universe doesn’t allow it, in order to even have clone troopers they had to invent an entire plot to find personal body clone tech in the form of an implant (source: Templar One, Novel) which wouldn’t work alongside the existing pod clone tech which is part of the reason you had to have an entirely different character to play dust and will have to likely have a different character to play Nova, the pods being jovian tech and the implants being sleeper tech

WiS was never really looked at as anything other than slight distractions and a way to try and sell clothes to people


(Teinyhr) #105

Not word for word, but the gist is the same. "This is only the first step of many that continues EVE Online’s progress towards the ultimate, immersive science fiction world. "

This devblog (and couple of others) made me sad, because they were still planning to release establishments in some of those devblogs.

For the millionth time, patently wrong. The first playable version of Incarna used Unreal Engine 3. Carbon was developed for WoD, announced in 2010 and generated a lot of oohs and ahhs for the hair and clothing physics. It is true that ambulation was rebuilt for Carbon and all the UE3 work was scrapped, sometime after 2008 fanfest, presumably, and it is true that EVE was used as testbed for the technology.

However, work for avatar gameplay in EVE certainly didn’t start just because of WoD, and I don’t know why this lie keeps getting repeated.


(Cypherous) #106

Check the timestamp, then check when CCP acquired white wolf, like i said, the WW purchase was the only reason any of this tech was developed

Which wouldn’t have been compatible with EVE and would have required you to essentially start an entire second game client to take advantage, hence being entirely disconnected until carbon was developed, and again, the WW purchase still predates all of this so like i said above :stuck_out_tongue:

Because its factually correct, CCP announced at the time they acquired WW that they would work on a WoD MMO which is the entire reason they developed the WiS tech to begin with, i mean people can disagree all they want


(Nana Skalski) #107

Game allowed for Unreal 3 stuff like showed on the video posted by DMC earlier.

Anyway, with Carbon or not, CCP wanted probably to make their own game engine that would be developed further in many other games, so they did what they wanted. But it was too much resources spread thin. If they would concentrate on engine and WiS in EVE, and then maybe using it in WoD with minor changes, like I think was always the way to go, then we would probably play EVE with those environments.


(Teinyhr) #108

Right, and not because players had been asking avatar gameplay for years before that. :roll_eyes:

Unless the neocom interface was a mock-interface and the UE3 demo just a completely separate game, it could have been compatible, like the CQ we got was also disconnected from happenings of TQ, it was an instanced space within the client, hence why we couldn’t for example get a huge window from where we could watch player ships go by while sitting at a space bar swilling space grog. This was explained by a dev in some of the many previous threads.

I wouldn’t be surprised that they indeed could have thought they’d kill two birds with one stone and use avatar gameplay development from their other game as a skeleton build for EVE. But to say it is the entire reason WIS was developed is just simply wrong. People wanted WIS, I remember talking about it with other players in 2004, 2005 and 2006-2011. Sure they liked EVE even without it, but everyone thought it’d be cool to walk in stations, ships, and fly on and land on planets, and also walk there. Way before Star Citizen was a twinkle in Chris Robert’s eye.


(Cypherous) #109

Players have asked for stupid numbers of things over the years, that doesn’t mean they are actually worth adding, in this case avatar gameplay served no real purpose in EVE and wasn’t even on the cards until the WW deal

I said “essentially”, you still need to load up the unreal engine in the background to handle all the WiS stuff as the main client isn’t using UE

And lots of people in the same time saw it as pointless, there has always been a vocal minority who wanted walking in stations, i never said there wasn’t, but it was always a minority and a small one at that


(Nana Skalski) #110

Have you counted them and the opposition? I think It was something less of a concern back then. EVE was on the rise and they wanted even more players. CCP just allocated their resources badly so the promised expansion was rather a flop. Not because that they worked on the WiS, but all the acompyining things. Monocle gate, remember that? Shop with monocles was first, with outrageous prices, then came only one room with closed doors and people memed that.

Also it was Hilmar who said “You have no balls” to microtransaction pricing dev, and dictated prices like they were, outrageous.

He was out there somewhere, not in contact with reality.

People for all of that saw WiS like a trojan horse full of stupid greed.


(Cypherous) #111

I remember the monocle incident, and i remember an overwhelming majority of the people i played with the at the time not even really caring about the monocle or the WiS promises, i don’t need to officially count them to know that they are a minority, we both already know it to be true, CCP also knows it to be true, hence why its been dropped entirely and was never expanded in all the time it was in the client, it really didn’t serve any purposes, having player run “shops” was pointless with the market we have, why would i care about what they are selling there when i can just buy what i need directly from the client fast :stuck_out_tongue:


(Nana Skalski) #112

All that majority, minority thing is subjective if you dont count the people. If you have some data, show us. Else its just, like, your opinion, man.

But it was not about trading what you can buy on market, it was about other trade market with WIS things.


(Cypherous) #113

Well you’re free to try and pull the “you can’t prove it” card but at the end of the day you’re not even kidding yourself in to thinking a majority of players cared about WiS, but you are entitled to your own opinion on it, but the removal of the feature kind of speaks for itself don’t you think

Yes but what, most people don’t care about cosmetics or cabin furniture, there is nothing else you could sell in those sorts of shops as anything that affected actual gameplay would have to be available directly from the market


(Nana Skalski) #114

People wanted WiS. Deal with it. Bah, they still want it. If not, Chris Roberts would not build whole game company on that promise. The universe where you can walk around your ship. Fight on foot and in ship.


(Cypherous) #115

I never said there wasn’t people who wanted it, i’m just reminding you that it is a minority group and that the development cost for a feature that only adds to server load and QA time that a small group of people uses that doesn’t have any meaningful impact on EVE is unlikely to get a green light

Get back to me when he actually delivers because at this point star citizen is a black hole for resources, how many years has it been in development and how much money has he managed to get? when he actually delivers a full fleshed out product we can talk, but comparing the two games directly isn’t really the same as they appeal to different people, STO is a better example and ground combat is despised in that game so yeah you’re trying to appeal to 2 different groups of people, again there will always be “some” people who want x feature regardless of what it is


(Nana Skalski) #116

Proof? Without any source telling the distribution of pro and contra you may be horribly wrong, I think if fact you are, just looking at the succes of games with avatars that utilize cosmetics and avatar actions. Just ask at Pearl Abyss, people who already own CCP.

One may also ask himself, if PA will direct CCP to develop EVE with WiS, but I think they will not do that. They will certainly use other means to milk all massed males here, who are getting nice time watching ships, like they milk males in other games by showing bouncing boobies.


(Teinyhr) #117

L E W D


(Cypherous) #118

Sure there is a remote possibility that i am infact wrong, however having been here for the last 14 years i like to think i’ve encountered enough different players to have sampled a decent enough portion of players to draw a fairly reliable guess, i mean you’re more than welcome to show me the 20,000 players who all desperately want WiS if you can find them, considering CCP didn’t see enough reason to continue the feature which means the cost of maintaining it was more than they were likely to get back, but yes there is a tiny chance i’m wrong, i wouldn’t say it was likely the case but it is a non-zero number so i’ll concede that, although i have never once said “nobody” wanted it just that it was a minority

Entirely different games, you’ll also see that games very much tend to go avatar or entity in terms of gameplay, they rarely bother to mix the two and when they do it doesn’t generally work very well especially when the second half is just haphazardly bolted on to a game that was never really built for it, even some games built for it like STO see far more people partaking in spaceship content than ground based content, people who want avatar gameplay to be a major part of their game generally play one of the MMO’s where its the main focus like WoW or FFXIV

There really isn’t that much to milk outside of skins, and most people rarely notice them on other peoples ships so its more about just making yourself look how you want, i own a handful of skins but its not something i really care that much about outside of a few specific ships that are more likely to get noticed, in EVE is harder to milk males specifically as regardless of gender you may or may not like a certain skin or item of clothing


(Teinyhr) #119

Gee, people weren’t using a feature that had no development in 6 years? And had literally nothing else to do but walk back and forth in solitude? And even so, without no knowledge of eve’s actual sub numbers I can’t tell numbers from percentages, but at a guess thousands(?) of people were still opting to use it: https://www.eveonline.com/article/preparing-for-the-future-retirement-of-captains-quarters-twitch-integration

I find it remarkable, that even that many people did use it, despite the neglect of the feature and the fact that there was nothing to do there. Also, the metric was pretty weird “whether they default to hangar view, or captain’s quarters view on login:” - I didn’t load straight to CQ because it was faster to load the hangar while starting the game, but turned CQ on later manually.


And yeah the reason given to us why CQ was axed because maintenance ate resources and apparently held back 64bit client (though, given the years WIS was being developed when practically all new CPU’s were 64bit, that’s entirely on CCP’s lack of foreplanning, not the features fault).


(Cypherous) #120

No interest in the existing content even at launch means they were given a very clear indication that not many people want it, like i said if you can get enough people to join a thread claiming they want it then they might reconsider it, but chances are you won’t even manage a few percent of the playerbase getting here to post that, which would mean it wouldn’t be worth re-developing

I am more than aware of this graph, it shows a fairly extreme minority of people were using it, assuming that they even doubled the average to 30% thats still a substantial minority who would use a feature that would cost a fair bit in terms of manpower and resources to develop and maintain, i mean if you wanted to personally fund it then sure, but the ROI on that project doesn’t look to be fantastic considering they would need to purchase additional hardware to even run the instances of pilots in stations spread out across the universe, including development of atleast 4 different station interiors to account for the 4 different races, excluding the different upwell structure types, yes some people would use it but i very much doubt it would be enough for the feature to really affect new eden

Part of that will be new players who joined, the default view was CQ and they may not have even known that the hangar view even existed, the same way new players don’t know about a number of features in the game because they don’t have any ingame tooltips to tell you

Its mianly because a 64bit client, much like WiS, doesn’t actually provide any real benefit, everyone has jumped on the phrase without understanding that it really doesn’t change a lot for EVE, the game client is for the most part a glorified “dumb terminal” as the server, which has been x64 for years does all of the actual work and the client only renders a graphical display of what the server is simulating