I would take this as a threat, if I didn’t know better.
Looks more like a preference to me.
1 Like
A very strong preference, indeed.
Fortunately for ARC, the only thing stronger than my desire to obliterate every foreign ship that dares cross into Pochven is my respect for Maldavius’ command.
Details I will keep foremost in my mind should I ever decide to visit.
Lo be it me to butt in but, having read the logs and the offer here you have used terms such as ‘fleet’ ‘forces’ etc to describe the ARC group moving into the designated trade system. It is somewhat duplicitous on the one hand to say someone’s forces (a word with connotations to an armed organisation) are allowed passage into Wirashoda, given The concerns raised about not trusting Triglavian Loyalist defences, and then on the other hand state transports must join the Triglavian fleet and be escorted by Triglavian forces to the tower.
Which one is it? Is the defence fleet allowed to enter to protect the transports (given ARC concerns) as per the wording of ‘taking forces’ to the tower, or are they not? Because as an experienced negotiator, that very much does read like new terms
To quote:
“We can extract refugees from all of the planets in Senda, Wirashoda, Ala, Vale, and Archee. We will route your fleet into Wirashoda and grant them docking access at our Fortizar. They will be safely waiting for you at that Fortizar and then we can scout you back through the wormhole to safety. This minimizes danger and allows our parties to meet in person."
This offer was made in response to firm objections to ARC transports being in the Clade’s fleet, or enter Pochven without defence. Nowhere is it made clear in that final offer that ARC having an escort fleet is ultimately rejected, nor is it made clear that ARC transports would ultimately have to be a part of the Clade fleet. Given the wording of ‘fleet’ and the previous wording of ‘forces’ in the original offer used in these very forums, I believe anyone would interpret this offer as allowing ARC to bring their own fleet to the specified system of Wirashoda where the trade is to occur. Obscuring the fact the terms now set forth were rejected outright, but apparently are still on the table, through duplicitous interchanging of terminology that can mean different things is not how you negotiate in good faith.
…did anyone here ask your opinion? No.
…are you the designated negotiator for ARC? No.
…could you perhaps do with a remedial course in reading comprehension? Yeah.
And so— whoever you are— feel free to take this opportunity to kindly ■■■■ ALL the way off.
You might also want to contact a physician to get that giant wad of abject pedantry extracted out of your ass.
1 Like
If Ms Malitia is allowed to interject her concerns as a linemember of the Clade, I get to interject mine as someone with long history working beside ARC and participating in EDENCOM efforts against the invasion. You don’t get to pick and choose when that principle applies.
Further, your group decided it wants to negotiate out in the open, therefore you can deal with the peanuts coming from the gallery. It coming from my mouth also does not make it less true.
1 Like
As for the reading comprehension, I think you might want to take a second look again at the multiple instances your condition regarding the transports being in your fleet was rejected loudly and clearly in entirely unambiguous terms. That your leader’s counter offer has now clearly been shown to be ambiguously defined by your party, and sneaky use of wording regarding who’s fleets and forces go where, to put that condition back in under the table is entirely on you to deal with
Ah yes, “sneaky use of wording.” Because I am well known for my. . . . subtlety.
In any case, Commander DutchGunner seems to have more than two brain cells to rub together AND is the ultimate decisionmaker so I see no need to entertain Professor Pedantry further.
In order to keep things clear and on topic, I will make a short summary on the current situation:
-
ARC wishes for the mass evacuation efforts for the entirety of Pochven. ARC is able to provide the industrials but has requested the help from others to keep the industrials safe. The content and purpose of these industrials has been made public, along with a timetable.
The request has been made for those who provide the escort, to only protect the industrials and limit aggressive action to the Roque Drones, Drifters and Sleepers. Escorts are also requested to try and avoid conflict with Triglavian forces. In case of attack, the escorts are free to protect themselves. The organisations that have offered their support so far have a proven record with ARC to uphold these terms.
In order to alleviate any concerns of wrongdoing, ARC has stated that a number observers are welcome to be present during the evacuation efforts. ARC aims for a diverse composition of observers. This is done to avoid the situation where it could appear as if there is a bias with regard to who will be observing. -
The offer from the Stribog Collective is that they will evacuate refugees from 5 systems in Pochven; Senda, Wirashoda, Ala, Vale, and Archee. Industrials will be under Stribog protection in order to pick up the refugees from those 5 systems. However this protection is only offered for the duration of picking up the refugees and leaving Pochven afterwards, following a certain route.
Observers are allowed, depending on who wishes to be an observer and how they wish to travel within Pochven. -
Stribog has stated they can’t abide any warships in their space.
With this summary the differences are very clear and I don’t believe that terms will be agreed upon. As such, I wish to offer the following compromise, considering what is at stake:
- The mass evacuation efforts will continue as announced, with at least 1 observer. The evacuation in the systems of Senda, Wirashoda, Ala, Vale, and Archee will be left to Stribog Clade.
As Stribog Clade is unwilling to provide protection for all of Pochven, ARC will still need escorts and that request remains. Those that serve as escorts will abide to the above stated Rules of Engagement for the duration of the evacuation efforts. They will enter and leave Pochven with the industrials.
During the evacuation efforts, the industrials and escorts will only travel through Senda, Wirashoda, Ala, Vale and Archee. They will not pause or linger in those systems.
I believe this compromise is reasonable and contains good terms that both ARC and Stribog Clade can agree upon.
Regards,
DutchGunner
(ARC Fleet Commander)
(CONCORD Loyalist)
3 Likes
I am glad you agree with our terms. We will begin evacuations immediately and have the refugees waiting for you in Wirashoda. We can guarantee safe passage via wormhole to that system as previously stated.
Understand that this isn’t a matter of will. We don’t shoot our allies and this situation would have us doing so. We must decline on that basis alone.
This presents a complication. All of our systems are next to one another so this is not necessary and increases the danger to your fleet. The only system ARC industrials are permitted to enter is Wirashoda and only with our scouts navigating you there via wormhole network.
I have offered a compromise and have not agreed with your terms.
Based on your reply, I assume that you don’t agree to the compromise as it is. ARC still wishes to have observers be present during the evacuation by Stribog in order to make sure that all who wish to leave, are also allowed to leave and get evacuated. For practical reasons, I will therefore ask if Stribog Clade agrees to the following compromise:
The mass evacuation efforts will continue as announced, with at least 1 observer. The evacuation in the systems of Senda, Wirashoda, Ala, Vale, and Archee will be left to Stribog Clade. The evacuation of these 5 systems will take place with observers from ARC present to make sure that all who wish to leave are indeed free to leave and get evacuated. In order for said observers to be present, the evacuation of the above planets will not take place on the 14th or 15th of this month.
As Stribog Clade is unwilling to provide protection for all of Pochven, ARC is allowed to have escorts. Those that serve as escorts will abide to the following Rules of Engagement:
The escorts will only protect the industrials and limit aggressive action to the Roque Drones, Drifters and Sleepers. In case of attack, the escorts are free to protect themselves and the industrials.
The above RoE will last for the duration of the evacuation efforts.
Regards,
DutchGunner
(ARC Fleet Commander)
(CONCORD Loyalist)
Funny, I’d think a diplomat would know that abject pedantry is the diplo’s coin-in-trade. Terms must be explicit, and painfully clear on both sides, in all agreements. Room for interpretation is room for misunderstanding is room for violation of terms, and conflict.
Worse, it opens the door for people other than the diplomats to step in an attempt to resolve the potential conflict—for example, Dutch stepping up to negotiate in public even after ARC’s diplo conducted the official negotiation.
Frankly, this kind of shoddy work would likely get you booted right out of the Corps Diplomatique, and get Dutch slapped down for not letting the diplos do their job, if it were CONDI. And while I like Dutch, and don’t like saying this about her, if I were Maldavus, I’d be telling Dutch ‘sit down and be quiet while Lasa and I work this out. The adults are talking’.
EDIT after viewing the logs:
You’re a diplo? Unless that was the most ham-handed ‘good cop / bad cop’ routine in all of existence… yikes.
1 Like
You’ve literally offered the same thing back to us while calling it a compromise. There is no difference between what you’ve offered and what we’ve offered other than the fact that you’ve called it a compromise of your design.
This is the only change from our original offer and it hasn’t been stated until just now. If not on the 14th and 15th then when? Do you really intend to leave these people on these planets simply because you cannot manage an observer to be sent to oversee this operation? What specifically is the pain point here?
This feels like intentional friction and not in the best interest of the refugees.
Again, this isn’t about will. Do not paint it as such. We will not attack our allies on your behalf even if it is for a peaceful mission. We have an agreement with the other Kybernauts in the region and we don’t break agreements.
So, Paramount? Maldavus, is it?
I can’t help but notice that after you invoke Hospitality and extend Guestright1, your representative there repeatedly says, “I will marshal every gun of Stribog Clade to defend you while you are our guests”. That, too, is right and proper, as you have, by that point, extended Guestright to the ARC transports. They would be your guests, so you are, of course, obligated to marshal every gun of Striborg Clade to defend them. But it does open up a question2:
Does that include against Triglavians and other Kybers?
If it does not, then what is ARC to do should their transports come under fire from such forces? Will ARC be allowed to keep an armed response force waiting on the other side of the wormhole against such an incident? Would ARC be allowed to bring unarmed3 support craft, such as Blackbirds, Damp-fit Maulii, or logistics ships, to protect their transports without either engaging in, or requiring Stribog Clade to engage in, violence against your allies?
I ask this with the understanding that the likelihood of such an event is low. As I understand it, the plan would be direct warps to/from a wormhole, so there shouldn’t be any real chance of the transports being caught. But mishaps happen, and contingencies can prevent needless acrimony and finger-pointing later.
1. At 20:24:45, with the words, ‘this is our home and you are guests in our house’, which is fine and proper; even if some of the underlying claims are still contested, it is your de facto home.
2. It does not ‘beg the question’. That’s something completely different, and it’s really annoying how often people confuse the two.
3. Easily verified via ship scanner.
The direction of ARC’s flow is known: it tends toward degeneracy, liberalism, and abolitionism. Any Minmatar “rescued” from former Amarr Empire worlds (or elsewhere) during this operation will likely be given freedom and permitted to go to the Republic, there to strengthen the enemies of the Chosen People of God.
The Amarrian Orthodox Church, Sedevacantist is thus suspicious of this operation as it stands. We recommend that the Triglavian loyalists filter out Minmatar civilians and prevent them from leaving.
Considering what we’ve laid out here there will be no need for a defense against Triglavians or other Kybernauts. Deviation from this plan will stop us from controlling the situation and stop us from ensuring ARCs safety. I do not wish for that to happen.
That being said, if something did go wrong in this situation we would defend ARC within Wirashoda and only within Wirashoda. Each clade within Pochven has very clearly defined borders. We don’t allow our guests to come under attack within our home but outside of these borders we have no imposed control. This is normal behavior in our culture and would not be seen as breaking any agreements.
Effectively the only moment of danger will be upon entrance of the wormhole prior to warp. If something does go wrong here the convoy can immediately return to High Security space through that wormhole until the situation is handled.
I can agree to this. As long as they do not enter our space then everything should be fine.
Logistics and transportation is all we will allow. This reduces the risk of an engagement and also prevents an issue should the convoy come under attack in the minimal time it is vulnerable.
2 Likes
Thank you for clearing that up.
My point of view has been on the evacuation efforts for the entirety of Pochven while yours was on a very specific part of Pochven. This misconception, combined with the overal messaging from your Director of Diplomacy, has resulted in a miscommunication where I misinterpreted the offer.
ARC has voiced it’s concerns with regard to not having observers for the evacuation of Senda, Wirashoda, Ala, Vale, and Archee and you agreed that those make sense. The above would result in a situation where this would be a reality.
It is complicated to organise things on this scale and it at a certain moment, it becomes impossible to make big changes in timetables or find free personnel for immediate reasignment.
There was no attempt at seeking or causing intentional friction. The previously mentioned miscommunication and misinterpretation resulted in taking the immediate start of evacuations as a similar act from Stribog instead.
Regards,
DutchGunner
(ARC Fleet Commander)
(CONCORD Loyalist)
1 Like