ARENA: All previously expressed concerns addressed

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
41

Thanks for more players’ input; this is a topic for all.

Nico: covered already-- address the supporting arguments. So you and others seem to be ok with people setting up their own ‘tourney’, but somehow the same thing in a ccp arena would be fatal. Please explain.

Omnathious: same as above.

Keno: ‘you can find that in literally any lowsec, nulsec or wormhole system you want at any time day or night’ If by pew you mean getting blobbed, then indeed I can find that (and even that can be hard at some times). If you mean something resembling sporting fun making the game worth playing then no, you cannot find that.

Ben: wait, you mean someone actually considered the argument and presented relevant data. Slow clap…
1/3 of demand is destruction-- some hard data against a total economy crash. I am ready to concede full price ships. The additional hope I had though was that we could fly more expensive craft. No reduction, only the rich can afford to fly big stuff, same as now. At least it would be fair tho.
Wholly agreed: opponents cannot be chosen; that defeats the purpose.

Mike: another interesting method, I like it and think it could work. This should be explored.
Also more kudos for second post; very true!
eg: I have no issue losing (or killing) ships, sometimes it takes me literally an hr or more just to find a fight worth doing-- and one ship pops. In an hr, I could destroy 5 ships in an arena. Now which is better for the economy, even at reduced cost?

Corraidhin: no, again, fallacious assumption. There would be many more players that would not otherwise even consider going out into the blob-verse getting into arena. And even if they are out there, what are the odds of running into them?

Raw: if you could pop a Ritalin and bite the bullet, that would be great. This isn’t War and Peace. I use lots of eye breaks, proper punctuation, and even included summarized points.
Glad you get and agree w the arena concept.

Wanda: RvB is great content and thanks to those guys for doing it! I think thats a solid second place. The main issue is that its only rvb-- there are lots of players who dont want to leave their corps. If you dont play at the peak tz thats going to diminish your encounters greatly; this can be said in general, but an arena is for everyone. Also it is unclear how many arranged fights they do as opposed to just a normal corp roam.

Jitus, Scipio and Salt: Yes, there must be loss. I think it can be done at reduced cost tho without adversely affecting industry much if at all; see above. Even if full-cost, arena is still a go.
Everyone please stop dwelling on no-loss.

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No, sorry, we have the biggest most awesome arena in gaming.

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43

You love completely unsupportable ideas and further, love posting them as facts…

  1. This game is as boring or as exciting as YOU make it. Form nullsec corporation, form a wormhole corporation, build your own CODE style extortion ring, build an CODE style piracy ring, go solo exploring deep inside nullsec that your corp/alliance doesnt hold, go and repeatedly attack nullsec alliance members, build a construction empire, please tell me how many of these experiences have you done or even attempted. I picked experiences that realistically a single person could do. Im going to guess ahead of time that you probably have tried some but not all of the above, so the problem isnt EVE being boring but you doing repetitive stuff and you being unwilling to attempt to form others into some living breathing entity that impacts EVE be this PVP or PVE.

  2. You mention, ‘cruising around for hours looking for content’, like this was an unavoidable fact, CAN you cruise around for hours and not find content, sure but CAN you find content at the undock of all the major trade hubs 23/7 365, YES and thus your premise is proven wrong without even mentioning the many other ways quick content can be found.

  3. Making the galaxy smaller is an unavoidable future for EVE based on declining subscriptions, so there is absolutely NOTHING else CCP could do to make EVE work (even if the subs keep dropping). Nothing at all, in the infinite number of other options CCP could come up with this is the only one that would make EVE work.

…WOW !!!

I named my posting alt JUSTIFIED ARROGANCE because im arrogant (the justified part is up for debate). The name, ‘BLACKand WHITE THINKING’ is still available, just saying…

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44

  1. I started life as an explorer and was in wh in about 2 weeks… Did the HS/WH vagabond wander for some time. Joined a corps but they were simply too demanding on time and doctrine (no hard feelings, just couldnt swing it). Did some incursions w the alt. Did some NPSI fleets, still do. Sometimes things happen, alot of time its wait then nothing or meh. Then started my own c3 corp w astrahus-ratting, athanor-moon & gas mining, p1-p4 PI. Got 3 citadels blown up and gave up on that idea. Joined a different corps with the alt, we do roams mostly. Sometimes its ok, often meh. One note is that often I play in the butt-crack of times, before server down, so not alot of dudes are on. True solo, I think most ppl know is dead but I still wander about knowing Im going to get blobbed and killed, or logoff after an hr with no encounters. Recently got into production and market with another alt, also skilled up freighter to move the crap. Some other things I probably forgot.
    So yeah, I’ll take poor assumptions for 800 please Alex.

  2. “CAN you find content at the undock of all the major trade hubs 23/7 365” lol and here we have the reveal, similar to Salt Ballbreaker.: You’re just afraid you’ll have less people to gank. Which, even if it was true (it isnt), I’ll repeat. boofucking hoo.
    I’m not looking for ganking, I’m trying, like alot of others, for some sporting fun, genius. How many times can this be iterated.

  3. Nothing other than… make the place more interesting so subscriptions dont decline as much. So you’re idea is to keep adding PvE that no one cares about or… what? Please share.

I’ve posted nothing as fact. I’ve posted solid logical reasoning. You have posted fear, anger and bias.
So yea. Wow.

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If you want to play a MOBA why don’t you go play a MOBA. Tagged on PvP arenas are just bad and no amount of crying about bittervets will cure that.

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46

I don’t think you get what a sandbox means, it means you don’t really have pre-defined areas of the game. The entire game is our arena. Initiating unsolicited PvP in some areas carry higher consequences than others.

Ahhh yes, this old chestnut. “Implement my request to save the game!!!”

Part of the sandbox is that players build pretty much everything. This idea weakens that. Terrible.

No. This illustrate that there are some people out of tens of thousands who have some interest in it. Posting on the forums is a shitty measure in terms of interest of the overall population.

You just underscored the primary reason you idea should and will be ignored.

Hahahahahahahahah…gasp…hahahahahahaha

There have been things like Hulkageddon, Burn Jita, etc.

I’m beginning to think this topic needs it’s own permanent threat like the AFK thread…

Says the guy who loathes PvP…absolutely despises it. Who does not really understand the core nature of the game.

Yes, please Mike tell us how to make a game you…actually kinda hate, but can’t stop playing…better. :rofl:

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47

Where is your evidence on the numbers who would take part in these arenas? If those players are only interested in arena combat, they would not be in open space.

Any players who currently play in open space who move to arenas for easy fights drops open space numbers. This in turn makes it harder to find fights in open space, which leads to a vicious circle of diminishing numbers.

As pointed out, EvE is your arena. Use RvB, join Brave, go to WH space, join Wingspan, join code, whatever floats your boat.

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48

Also why don’t you just play Valkyrie which is a dedicated arena PvP game. If you are into arena PvP and EVE online this is probably the game you are looking for. It also completely focuses on that particular play-style and will hence do it better than any artificially attached arena mini-game in EVE Online ever could.

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49

In days gone by people used to flock to watch the games of the gladiators.

There are a few tournament things out there, i think if added correctly an arena might provide some extra fun and life to the game; for those concerned it might wreck it, it wont - arena pvp would be much like the AT or just better arranged 1v1’s. More a case of rushing each other, which means many pvpers might have a go every now and then, but they certainly wont live for it.

I think the intrinsic ‘problem’ with the dueling function is basically its set up so i can sit on a station and throw invites out to duel freighters, shuttles, corvettes… but it doesnt allow for a more… whats the word… group immersive experience?

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Every single ship that enters a instanced Arena or PvE area LEAVES EVE, the EVE population decreases by the same number as the ships that left.

Instancing is the worst possible thing that could be done to EVE, it is ANTI EVE.

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51

While your idea and logic are sound, i must disagree with your conclusion. EVE is EVE, it isnt some other game, if it was it might have arenas. The idea of EVE is to have an open style world where fighting is more or less organically a part of the game.

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  1. Good to hear it but even that fairly impressive list still leaves almost an infinite amount of other opportunities to be explored, go do them.

  2. I have never ganked anyone at an undock, that was just an off the top of my head example. As to your sporting fun, the problem is how counter to EVEs design and philosophy it runs: not that arenas couldn’t be added to EVE, not that they might not help retain some subscriptions but that arenas don’t fit EVEs design philosophies.

  3. First, there can be no proof that your arena concept would keep EVE subs from declining, you cannot therefore, conclude that your idea would help declining subs. Secondly, as a person bringing retort to your idea i am not in any way obliged to offer you any idea as counter to yours, proper argumentative form does not require it in this case, so i will not supply one.

  4. In the cases were i stated you provided no support for your ideas none was given. You cannot; for instance, come to a conclusion that adding arena style game play to EVE will stop the drop in EVE subs since arenas have never existed in EVE, there is no way to test your conclusion and thus it cannot be stated as fact.

Just a helper here: the proper way to put forth your idea such that is not taken as given fact is to do the following…

In my opinion, if arenas were added to EVE, EVE would stop losing subscriptions. The beauty of this is that an opinion is absolutely, always and completely unassailable by anyone.

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“proper argumentative form…” irony so rich you have to take out a second mortgage. love it, thanks.

absolutely nothing new has been said which hasnt been soundly countered and still awaiting response, and I suspect at this point there is no hope of anything more.

If CCP is listening: Please hold some kind of referendum where the average player can know and vote on it.

There is at least one undoubted thing put forth by the naysayers here, which is “Posting on the forums is a shitty measure in terms of interest of the overall population” (no one tell Teckos most ppl here are against the arena…)

This really deserves to be at least heard by the players. As for that evidence of interest, I’ve already stated it, which is actually flying around and chatting w many ppl. Most are at least intrigued by the idea.

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/thread

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Yep. You started the same old thread with the same crappy idea. Made claims you can’t back up and dismissed arguments rather than addressing them.

Is it any wonder this thread ends like the others, having gone nowhere.

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daichi, ok, ill indulge you: please list the arguments I dismissed rather than addressing, and I will address them.

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You say this won’t affect open pvp because you say so. But anyone who says the opposite must provide more than just saying so.

Then several responses right after you are saying ‘no this argument is invalid because it won’t affect open world pvp’.

Again you say the standard concerns are rubutted, but as above, only cause you say so.

His assumption is bad but yours is right Because you say so.

Your biggest issues are these:

– By your own admission it takes a while to get a fight in the sandbox. This idea takes other targets out of that sandbox so it would take even longer to find someone. Which causes a snowball affect as it takes longer and longer to find a target, players are more inclined to go where they can find a fight. Even if the quality of that fight is lower.

This happens in other games, and not even sandbox games. Players looking for a pvp match will sometimes opt for a co-op or single-player match if matchmaking takes too long.

For someone who complains a few times thay his rebuttals aren’t getting addressed, this is the BIG one that needs to be satisfied for people like me to have any chance of getting on board.

So long as the arena cannot be interfered with, it’s NOT a single shard universe like this game has been sold to me. If i cannot hunt you and ruin your day because you’re in arenas all day, it’s not the sandbox. There is no butterfly affect.

And if you think ‘allowing interference defeats the purpose of arenas’ then maybe you should realise arenas defeat the purpose of eve…

– You do misunderstand eve, the economy and the sandbox. Taken straight from the golden rules of eve:

There is no such thing as “a fair fight” or “an unfair fight”. There’s only a fight. Circumstances are irrelevant.

And granted you got there in the end for how bad an idea cheap ships are. I don’t think you realise just how tight the margin is on ships because production is so stupidly high and how low destruction is. Even when the MER says production is three times as high as destruction, that’s not exactly accurate. Destruction is over represented and productions is under represented. So it’s worse than it looks.

– You’re wondering why it would be bad to make player arenas like ccp’s? Because ccp does one a year for about two weeks (and you can be damn sure it’s hard to find participants in the sandbox during these two weeks). Players as a collective given ways to make their own arena instances, may do them all year round. Taking them out of the sandbox potentially indefinitely.

Anyone who wants arena style fights and arranged pvp. Goto sisi. It doesn’t allow non-consensual pvp and the equipment is cheap. It’s everything anyone not looking for real pvp could hope for.

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My favorite part is the argument that we can’t have an arena because it would be too fun and no one would go out and play in regular space.
I highly doubt that though. Most of the gankbears of EVE are far too afraid to face targets that actually shoot back.

Maybe we should include a special match type just for them where one side brings industrial ships, miners, and freighters and we make a contest for how fast they can be popped or something.

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This is that wilful ignorance you’re famous for.

It doesn’t have to be popular. All it has to do is take a few people out of the sandbox. Enough to make a little more of the population fed up of not finding fights. Which makes more people fed up of waiting and so on and so on. And notice I’m not saying they will all join the arenas. Because some will be leaving the game as the sandbox pvp (you know, the whole point of this game) gradually dries up. Jesus, it’s already happening. The loss of subs isn’t because we don’t have an arena (lol) it’s because non-consensual sandbox pvp was nerfed (subs started falling shortly after inferno. Go figure).

If you want eve to die faster, then sure give us arenas and further segregate the population. Or if you want to light a fire under it’s arse, unleash us upon each other.

Here endeth the lesson.

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61

Daichi, thanks for taking time to write an actual reply. I’ll address more later.

But for now, the main flaw in your and others’ thinking (which I’ve stressed so many times) is the type of fights being had and found. There is virtually no true 1 on 1 pvp to be found anywhere in eve (and no dont say plexes) If nothing exists in the first place, how can it be reduced?
You’re simply talking about losing desperate solo people hoping for some 1v1 to gank with your fleet. Stop being so selfish and let even a small bit of different play style happen somewhere. There will still be plenty of players to gank in transports, ratters, miners, explorers, even roaming gangs who dont want arena ‘fairness’. Reason: None of that happens in the arena and must be done to earn plex/keep the game moving and its fun also. That’s a straight line drawn to a priori.
I have a few toons which I do all the above with in addition to pvp. Even if we had an arena, I would still roam gang and solo. Frankly, I play less now that I’ve given up on decent 1v1. How does all that work into your ‘double-shard segregated evaporation’ theory? So you’d rather try to chase a savvy solo player who knows he’s going to be dunked and will most likely avoid the fight anyway, or an industrial? Or maybe you prefer a player not even in space or logged on?
It’s plainly false to assert instances of one type of thing eliminates or even reduces instances of another type of thing by the same player.

eg1: “man I really feel like blowing something up right now. I ‘only’ have an hour and I know even if I do find a fight, I’m just going to get blobbed, so fuckit, I’ll play something else” or “wow I/we flew around for an hour, didn’t find anyone or get a warm and fuzzy about that guy Daichi, so I/we didnt take the fight. That was utterly unfulfilling.”

eg2: “man I really feel like blowing something up right now. I ‘only’ have an hour so let me/we head over to the arena. That was awesome! but now I/we need to earn some isk for more ships so let me/us go mine/ratting/shipping/market/explore to make that happen. Damn I just got ganked by Daichi!”

eg3: “Arena is cool and all, but its a bit routine, I think I’d like to go on a roam w the bro’s, maybe do some explo which I havent done in a while. Kill that dude Daichi!”

You think like politicians raising taxes who assume a fixed gdp, not understanding the higher tax rates reduce the total gdp to draw on.
Please try to see the big picture.