Armageddon VS Smaller Ship

PvP Gameplay Center PvP Ships & Modules
1

Is there an Armageddon fit using t2 modules that can beat the following:

Rapid Light Caracal
Heavy Missile Caracal
HAM Caracal
Railgun Moa
Raukgun Ferox
Autocannon Stabber (fusion or phased plasma M)
Blaser + Drones Vexor
T2 Nergal

Scenario 1:
Smaller Ship warps to Battleship at 0. Maybe he took an acceleration gate and didn’t pay attention to D-scan. Or maybe he’s hunting the Armageddon. The two ships have a 1 vs 1.

Scenario 2: 3 Smaller ships of different types from the above list (like a Railgun Moa, a HAM Caracal, and a dorne and Blaster Vexxor) warp to 1 Armageddon at 0 and the other 2 can position themselves where they want (maybe with the first one, maybe spaced out). the ships have a 3 vs 3.

Is there an Armageddon fit that can win both scenario 1 and scenario 2?

Or maybe…

Maybe an Armageddon fit to kill cruisers just can’t also kill Nergals. After all, the hull of a Nergal is comparable to the hull of an Armageddon, but Trig ships are quite good at killing battleships. If there are two hulls of comparable prices but one is bonused towards medium projectile turret and optimal range and the other is bonused towards drones, the one bonused towards artillery will be quite good at the 20 to 30 km engagment range. So an Armageddon might be expected to do well against ships vulnerable to neut pressure, but a Nergal with its precursor gun and an energy vampire can hold out.

2

What?

3

Does it have to be an Armageddon or are you open to suggestions?

The Armageddon isn’t very good at 1 vs many. At least not by itself. May I suggest a hurricane or a tempest instead?
I was flying those when I was still active and for defense purposes in 0.0 while either mining or whenever someone came and becoming content. Unfortunately, I never lost either one of them.

Both can either be good with autocannons or arties. It all depends on how many you will likely be facing and what they may be bringing.
The fitting simulator works on both servers the same way. That leaves no excuse for not using it to find a fit that fits your needs.

4

Should be doable if you concentrate on killing stuff in scram range. With rapid heavy missile launchers and two or more medium neuts together with scram and stasis grappler and stasis webifier you should be able to tear everything frigate up to cruiser easily apart what happens to risk going into your scram range.

For everything else fit a Micro Jump Drive so if you get kited you simply align out MJD and warp into safety, if you can’t drive it off with missiles and drones.

Hint: use your neutralizers one after the other. Not all at once. The idea is to steadily suck the enemy dry to compensate Nosferatu or cap boosters as quick as possible.

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5

As a rule , any battleship fitted with the holy trinity (scram,web,grappler) will obliterate a frigate that gets into scram range. On top of that, the geddon gets a bonus to neutralizers and drone damage to make matters even worse for a frigate, which is why you can even drop a web or the grappler. The Nergal has its weapon relying on cap , it will simply not handle the neut pressure (it will stop firing, local tank will shut down) and even with a scram and web , medium drones and heavy faction missiles will apply damage to it .

As for the cruisers, geddon is a hard counter to those , quite overkill tbh. Anything that’s under 30 km from you gets wasted. Cruisers in general have a small cap pool , specially the Caracal and Stabber since you’ve mentioned them. If they get within your neut range, it will be very hard for them to get out of it. When engaging cruisers I usually go with a long point, web and MWD setup. If kited from more than 40 km away and not scramed, just align to something , MJD and warp out .
Your hull will force the fight for them at 40+ km away (if they get closer it’s in your favor) forcing them to use long range ammo with poor DPS .

Depending on what you are up against , you will decide what are the best mid slot picks for you . Other than that, I used a triple plated or hull tanked geddon with 1 DDA , tank rigs, rapid heavies and 2 neuts, sometimes 3 neuts depending on the situation.

Personally I used it mostly as a deterrent or as a full neut rack to support a fight . Don’t expect people to fight you… I only got 2 cruisers gangs to fight me and only once for some weird reason a lone Ashimmu agressed me… guess he wanted a quick trip home. But keep in mind that you are not invincible as with any other ship in Eve, a fight against well seasoned pilots in cruisers can mean death for you.

6

Eh, my friend and I were having a discussion about the Nergal. So we expect the Hurricane Fleet Issue, which gets projectile bonuses, to outperform a Hurricane, which has projectile turret bonuses, since both share the same “niche” but one is pricier. But ships with comparable hull prices will perform differently based on their niches. Like I said, projectile based ships will do well against a drone boat if they can keep their engagement range at the edge of optimal range. He said since the Nergal and a Armageddon were comparable in prices, we’d expect the Nergal to perform better in situations where the entropic disintegrator is superior and the Armageddon to perform better when neut pressure is important. Seems logical.

Then he showed me some killmails he got where he warped to 0 on friendly barge being attacked by an Armageddon that was bascially on top of said barge. His Caracal, Moa, Stabber, and Nergal fits seem reasonable to me.

The 3 Geddons players he killed (multiple times…) don’t seem to be fit well. One version had a 400mm plate, but enough PG to replace it with a 1600 mm one. Several of them had mixed an active and a buffer tank. None of them had a stasis grappler. One had 3 launchers in the highs, 1 drone range augmenter, and 3 remote armor reppers. I only saw one video, but when my buddy warped to the barge at 0 with a railgun Ferox to save the barge, the Armageddon’s drones just gave up after the barge was blown up and didn’t even aggress the Ferox. One of them tried a mix of a DC, explosive hardener, armor plates, 1 energized multispectirum membrane, 3 trimarks, and 3 reinforced bulkheads. All of the times the Armageddon recalled drones and moved in a straight-line once armor reached 30%, sometimes appearing to align to a stargate, sometimes appearing to align to a planet, sometimes appearing to go to nothing and every time seeming obvious to the fact he can’t slowboat out of scram range.

I asked if he thought he was going in those engagements to win. He said except for the nergal which he expected to win outright, he was actually trying to hold the guy in place for help to arrive. When he was winning, they focused on asking the barge(s) if they had done any drone damage. If yes, then they just did nothing on grid until the Armageddon was almost toast and then they fired on it, if no, then they sat on grid the whole time. In both cases they were prepared to preemptively blow it up if it looked like the tide might turn, but that never happened.

To me it seems that the basic problem was these Armageddons were poorly fit and in the case of the drones which did nothing after killing the barge, the guy probably just gave up. However I considered the possibility that a battleship fit to take on cruisers might not be fit to take on an AF and vice versa…

I proposed this

[Armageddon, Missile with Hardener]

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile

100MN Afterburner II
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Warp Scrambler II
Heavy Jigoro Enduring Stasis Grappler

Imperial Navy Explosive Armor Hardener
Damage Control II
Multispectrum Energized Membrane II
Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Reactive Armor Hardener

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Transverse Bulkhead II
Large Thermal Armor Reinforcer II

Curator I x5
Curator I x3
Hammerhead II x5
Hornet II x5
Infiltrator II x5
Vespa II x5

This ought to obliterate any cruiser or smaller that needs cap right?

The only thing that concerned me was that one of the kills that he made had 4 Heavy Nuets and somehow he still beat the Armageddon. He said it was due to his nos, but a small nos shouldn’t have been able to outpace 4 heavy neuts so… I don’t know what happened there?

7

… and in the wrong hands.

No.

If you don’t know to fit and use one, you should stick to smaller hulls. Battleships are no longer so affordable anymore, specially when the insurance on them was nerfed to the ground. Should you still want to use one, mess around with some friends on sisi with it first.

8

Scram, grappler, heavy neuts – there are 4 possible outcomes:

  • you win
  • target manages to burn out of scram range and flies away
  • target manages to burn out of neut range and is tickling you from 50km, you can safely warp off
  • target manages to burn out of scram range but keeps you pointed (probably burning through cap boosters to deal with your neuts, or by bouncing in and out of neut range) he then calls in help and you end up in scenario 2

Assuming your targets are knowing what they are doing, I’d say scenario 1 is not very relevant and you should always expect to end up in scenario 2.

9

That’s kind of what I expected to happen with a small ship with cap intensive weapons VS an Armageddon at 0.

But it’s apparently possible to fit and pilot a ship so badly you lose to an AF.

So… what’s a reasonable fit that will stick to those 4 expected outcomes?

10

There are so many unknowns and factors to take into consideration here …
First of all , how is the AF fitted ? Is it running an MWD ? AB ? Scram or long point ? Is the tackle mod faction or t2 ? Does it have cap battery or cap booster ? Does it have a web instead ? How competent is the pilot ? What does the pilot do on grid with the geddon in terms of positioning until the geddon gets a lock on him ?
I can give you multiple answers , I just need more information for said scenario and what exactly is it that you want to know.
What I can tell you for sure, if the geddon is fitted with scram + web + grappler , rapid heavies and 2 large neuts and the AF finds itself scramed , it will be no gettaway and certain loss of the AF, no matter how the AF is fitted or what the pilot does. It simply won’t go anywhere and it will die as soon as the ADCU goes on cooldown.

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11

OK, I’ll give you one Nergal fit he used

[Nergal, Nergal fit]

Abyssal Assault Damage Control
Small Abyssal Armor Plates
Multispectrum Energized Membrane II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

5MN Abyssal Microwarpdrive
Small F-RX Compact Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 150
Federation Navy Warp Scrambler

Light Entropic Disintegrator II, Occult S
Small Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Small Explosive Armor Reinforcer II

I think the plates were 200 crystalline, the MWD was Domination, and the Damage control was a tech II, but it just says “abyssal”
…

That’s what he used to kill the Armageddons. Not sure how he managed to do it considering in one fight alone he capped out 7 times, lost spool, and had to wait for the nos or booster. I don’t remember his Rapid Light Caracal, Heavy Missile Caracal, HAM Caracal, Railgun Moa, Raukgun Ferox, Autocannon Stabber or Vexxor fit.

Not in low sec, not on the same toon (or even a toon in the same corp), not in an asteroid belt, and not against an Armageddon, but he did kill a neuting battleship with a Nergal before

Dominix | KakaJo Kakieshi | Killmail | zKillboard

I’m trying to look for something that can squish any of the ships he used 1 vs 1 if said ship warped to 0 on the geddon. In theory it seems easy, just cap out the smaller ship and then it dies,…

12

Ok, lets start with the simple things…

I do not know how those geddons he killed were fitted , so I will have to debate on multiple scenarios here…

The cruisers and the Ferox, if they land on 0 they have time to get out of scram range due to the long lock time of the geddon . Now let’s presume that for some weird reason they will want to take a fight with the geddon 1 v 1 , this mean they will be in disruptor range (~ 20-30 km depending on the disruptor type. At that range they will just succomb to the neut pressure and DPS of the geddon and die if they stay on grid . Now if the geddon has scram , they can just disengage, if it has long point that might be or not be possible , it depends if the cruiser or Ferox still has a bit of cap left to get out of disruptor range and warp out . Either way none of them can hold the grid against a decent fitted geddon and a decent pilot.

Now as for the Nergal , i will presume the ideal mid slots fitted for the geddon (scram, web, grappler) any other mid slot combination will have a way harder time against the AF.
I see the Nergal has a faction scram fitted , cap booster , AAR, ADCU, some buffer and a NOS. He will be able to stay out of the geddons scram range for a while if he overheats the faction scram, but he can’t do that for long , so he’ll have to get within the standard 10 km range of it, at which point the geddon can just overheat the t2 scram and shut down Nergal MWD, he will end scramed, dual webbed and neuted at which point the geddon will actually be faster than him an will dictate the range of the fight within scram range if he really wants to.
The NOS on the Nergal won’t help him much (at best it can keep the scram going) , the cap booster also . The cycle time of the cap booster will be almost the same as the cycle time of the geddons neuts , if the geddon pilot staggers them correctly. Geddon will neut basically 600 GJ (from 2 heavy neuts) per 12 s (10 s heated) while his cap booster can only inject 150 GJ at about 10s .
Suppose the Nergal activated his ADCU and got some cycles of repair out of that AAR, the moment the ADCU will go on cooldown and the AAR on reload - if he’s not already cap dry - it will go down, because it will simply not handle the incoming DPS.
With web and grappler the faction heavy missiles will apply damage even if he has a low signature , they will not apply perfectly but they will apply enough, they will shoot a stationary target . Same goes for the medium and heavy drones of the geddon.

So, if he managed to 1v1 a geddon with a Nergal and win , it’s because the geddon pilot lacked PvP experience and had a bad fit. From experience I can tell you that even if you give a good fit to an inexperienced or new pilot , in most situations they still manage to do something wrong and end up with a loss at the end of the day.

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13

Indeed, he didn’t actually expect a t1 cruiser or BC to win. He had expected the bigger and more expensive ship to win and in all these cases he was just trying to hold the grid long enough in either disruptor (railfgun fit) or scram range (HAM or blaster fit) until the cavalry undocked and arrived. Then when he noticed he was winning, the cavalry either did nothing and let him “test” out his technique and waited until the last minute to kill (if the barge was going to be on the killmail) or do nothing and wait to see if he started losing (if the barges were not going to be on the killmail for… some reason).

The Nergal he did expect to win, but the cavalry was undocking anyways in case he was wrong or in case this guy called friends.

I asked him if there was an Armageddon fit that could beat all of his ships he used to save/avenge the barge 1 vs 1, and a same fit that could win a 3 vs 3. He just shurgged and he said “I’m sure a descent fit could beat my t1 crusiers easily. The Nergal, I don’t know. I don’t know if something can beat all of them 1 vs 1 since fighting a crusier and an AF are different. Whatever you do, just don’t do what these 3 guys did since I have 15 killmails to show what not to do” sadly, while he showed the killmails, I only saw one video and it was the one where 5 Infiltrator IIs destroyed the Retreiver and completely ignored its mother ship trying to use web to hold the Nergal in place, neut it, and shoot it with Railguns.

Also, don’t use cruise missiles if an AF will warp to 0 on you. At least put 8 km from the barge you’re attacking if there is an AF on D-scan

So while I know what not to and fit an Armageddon to fight a Nergal, I didn’t know what to do so I made this post. You said triple plate, tank rigs, rapid heavies, neuts, seems logical. So thank you for your advice!

14

Geddon is not great with 1vMany, as mentioned before. You can go the neut route, but you are pretty much going buffer. Once the fleet kills your drones, you just kinda die.

As mentioned elsewhere, laser ships are just bad. My top suggestions are the single-neut Maelstrom, the Tempest, the Cruise Typhoon, the RHML Raven or Raven Navy or Scorp Navy, or the Hyperion. All of those are active fit, and the Tempest and Typhoon will be armor.

The Nergal is a pain. All you can do is force it off. Try to neut the Ferox (unless it is at like 50km).
Neut the Vexor first thing, shoot something else in the meantime, I suggest the Stabber or Caracal.

Anything with neuts is scary. Get that Vexor out second. Then the remaining brawl cruiser (Stab/Cara).

Ignore the Nergal. Maybe try neuting it.

You MUST have an MJD. Otherwise you will doe a horrible death.

If you have one utility high, bring a heavy Neut. If you have two, also bring a Smatbomb for the pesky ECM drones. After that, you might want to consider running or loading long range for the Ferox. If he is super far out you could try MJDunking on him.

The rail ships will be tough to crack.
The Nergal will, if staying out of neut range, permatank you.
If the Nergal is in range of his nosferatu, your second priority after the Vexor is the Nergal.
neut him out, leave his drones, unless they are EC, and load tracking ammo (antimatter, depleted uranium, faction rockets). Get your cargohold ready to be filled with juicy Nergal loot.

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15

I didn’t mean 1 vs Many for scenario 2, but I thinking, 3 Armageddons (all same fit) vs a combination of 3 different ships. So maybe a Nergal, Railgun Ferox, and a Rapid light caracal.

Scenario 1 was the 1 vs 1 and scenario to is a 3 vs 3, not a 1 vs 3.

16

Well yeah 3 battleships would absolutely wreck a couple T1 ships and a frigate. Triple plate, webs, neuts, drones, MJDs, easy clap.

Blights Wretch was able to fight over 20 T1, navy, and T2 frigates + some destroyers in his Tempest. He won, ran off, times were good.

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17

You mean TFI right? Those have more PG than regular Tempest and can do nice things with the fitting room.

18

Nope. Tempest.

ACs, dual neut or neut smartbomb, MJD grapple web point/scram cap booster, DCU RAH dual rep double gyro with a multispec

19

Re OP: there won’t be a single fit that can handle all the listed examples in your scenarios. But the Armageddon is remarkably versatile and one can make the fits resourceful and full of surprises.

As usual, it’s never the ship that kills other ships, it’s the pilot. Among seasoned pilots it will be the first one who makes a mistake who will die. And of course, you need to pick your fights. Your fit should always reflect want kind of encounter you have in mind, and it shouldn’t be used in situations that are out of your control or area of knowledge (you’re not familiar with hull type, or with the usual fits on that hull etc.).

With its access to rapid missile launchers of both types, impressive drone capabilities (and bay) you can make life very miserable to anything cruiser sized and below. And if you have an ISK waster coming at you with a polarized hecate (true, it really happened to me…) while you’re running a pve site, well, your drones will roll over laughing while they kill it for you, and give you a nice extra kill mark.

But no, there won’t be a single fit for all situations. You pick the situations for your fit.

1 Like
20

Holy heck, polarized Hecate!
That does, what, 1100 DPS?! Or more?!

Yeesh.