Can you offer me my world back? The rest of my Tribe?
Already been gored. Trying to pull ourselves off the tusk before we pull at a freakin’ leech.
Look, I really don’t want to be agreeing with Lord Consort Werehorsie in a public channel full of angry Minmatar, but that is really where we are right now.
The Amarr enslaved us. They invaded us, stole our sisters and brothers and have yet to free them, destroyed our worlds, and have us still scrambling to pick up the pieces. It hurts. I know that better than all of you apart from Sera, considering how bad off my clan came out of it and remains compared to everyone else’s.
But right now, the active threat is not the Amarr Empire. The active threat is whoever sicced blooders on Sundsele, and whoever in the Republic government let it happen, and everyone who directly benefited from it (Shakor, to start). Take a look at the Empire’s recent problems. Don’t they look a heck of a lot like ours?
Here we have the exact dude who had the most direct contact with our nearest opportunity for answers. And he’s going out of his way to offer an olive branch. Does he have something to gain from this? Definitely. But so do we.
Whatever powers are colluding to wreak havoc on our society have decided to divide us from within. What if we respond by not only uniting our own people, but also uniting, however briefly, with our likeminded old enemies? Wouldn’t that be a sight to run from?
Think about it. Seriously. I want you to sit down and think, meditate, wander, pray, get high, whatever it is you do to find direction.
I bet it’ll lead you to unity.
And before you say, “But you live with LUMEN now!” let me confirm that yes, I hang out with Amarr. I’ve talked with them. Individuals, with their own opinions and desires and motives. Kinda like we have. Trust me, they realize the pain that our shared history put us through. And some of them, at least, are opening their minds.
Maybe we should take this chance to encourage that shift in paradigm.
You’re absolutely right on that part. There is the Amarr Empire, and there are Amarr men and women. The two are not the same. Many of the ones that I have met are pretty decent people at their core. Some of them are not.
However, here’s where you’re wrong:
It is the policy of the Amarr Empire to enslave and destroy the Matari people and culture. Even if individual Amarr are caring people that do not want that, they don’t get a choice. The Amarr Empire, and the True Amarr leaders consider themselves to be the rightful rulers of the cluster, and slavery to be a natural part of the reclaiming.
Let’s look at Lord-Consort Aldrith Shutaq. Husband to Lady Mitara Newelle.
“A military Reclaiming is off the table for the forseeable future.” That is, as long as the Matari remain strong enough to fight them off. "[Y]ou poor, shaking, beaten dogs . . . " are not the words I would use to offer help. Even with his olive branch, he’s demanding we kneel. A military Reclaiming might not be feasible now, but you may rest assured it continues through other means. The Archbishop Constantin travels to Tribal space to try and convert Matari to the Amarrian faith.
Aldrith Newelle himself has very little influence. His wife has all of it. And she owns slaves, lots of them. Her Beast put down a rebellion in the most bloody of ways, with maximum violence. We can talk about the Tribes, but those slaves killed were Minmatar. They were of the Tribes.
I get that it’s complicated, Melisma. You meet some people and they seem nice and fun. They let you into their home, are accommodating. I understand, totally. I like some of them, too. But never, ever confuse the Amarr Empire with Amarr people.
The Starkmanir did the same thing. Saint Arzad Hamri was a great man, and a good Holder. And we were good slaves. He treated us well, with benevolence and a genuine concern for our well being. Under his guidance, the Starkmanir were furthest along the path to being Reclaimed.
And then it ended. The Amarr Empire killed him. The Amarr Empire destroyed our world and the Starkmanir Tribe. As long as that Empire exists, it will always be a threat. Even now, you’re seeing it happen again. The once that are nice, the ones that are decent, they are being attacked by one of the Theology Council, just like St. Arzad. How long before the Amarr you’re friends with are outcasts and outlaw because their Empire didn’t appreciate their point of view?
As far as peace with the Amarr people is concerned, if they work WITH us, they’re fine. Alot of these problems stem from the fact, well sometimes what’s lost does not wish to be found. Your kin found us, and tried to reclaim us. We don’t wish to be reclaimed. Please, let us enjoy our ignorance of your god. Believe me, it truly is bliss.
This is much more like the tone of conversation I’ve been wanting to have in this thread. Thank you, Sera.
That’s not dissimilar to saying “even if individual Matari don’t want to live under the rule of a budding tyrant, they don’t get a choice.”
But we do get a choice. And the Amarr get a choice too. Governments serve at the will of the people. Always. When you see tyrants grow, that’s when that Sanmatar or that Empress or that Lord or that Khumatar has forgotten that fact. Government exists to serve its people. The people don’t exist to serve the government.
Rulers are, or should be, the ultimate public servants. They should represent the interests of their constituencies, and address the needs of those under their power. When rulers begin to serve their own interests rather than those of the people, then the people—these Amarr and Matari individuals—will replace them in a peaceful and lawful transfer of power. And if that peaceful transfer happens to fail, and these individuals appear before their respective governments in neatly fitted battlecruisers, well, who’s to say no changes will occur?
Indeed, Sera, the truth that these rulers fear is that we—all of the people, not just capsuleers—hold the power. We can hold them accountable, and we can dispose of them by any means at our hands.
You’re very right: the Amarr people will be the ones to stand and produce change. Not their governments.
Zashev’s fate might even prove an excellent expression of that. That’s why I’ve quite literally bet that Zashev will escape justice in some form of governmental failure. I want Lord Consort Newelle to observe these things I’m saying in real time. And he will.
I agree here, too. I never said the Empire was not a threat. I said that it is not currently the active threat. To wit, it is not primary. We should focus all of our firepower on the primary, and go back to shooting the Empire later, if necessary.
Counterpoint: Maybe my Amarr associates will become the leaders of a rejuvenated Empire, and those Holders and royals clinging to the old ways will be the ones cast out.
Now this statement might be the only thing you said here that rings false. Constantin is Archbishop of the Hinterlands, which makes him a leadership figure over all the faithful in Republic space and pretty much everywhere else that isn’t Amarr. His role is an administrative one over an archdiocese that serves faithful who live in the Republic—whether former slaves who kept their faith, or recent additions. I’ve never seen him or any of his staff “convert” or “reclaim” any Matari. And I’ve never met a parishioner of theirs that was present against their will.
Personally, I despise the Amarr faith. And I’d rather not see it in the Republic. But it is already there; our returning sisters and brothers often keep to it, as you know. As long as a person is choosing to follow or keep to the faith of their own free will, I don’t think we can object to it.
So, insofar as Constantin is concerned at least, there’s no need to worry about a sinister plot to reclaim Matari via “travel to Tribal space” to tempt us into liking their god. I’m perfectly happy to vouch for him.
You know this. I know this. This is a basic concept for us.
This is not a thing the Amarr Empire knows. It is not a thing the Amarr people know. Here’s what they know:
The Emperor or Empress exists to serve God.
The Empire exists to serve the Emperor or Empress.
The Amarr exist to serve the Empire.
Non-Amarr exist to be brought to heel and serve the Amarr.
Everything you said about the Amarr Empire is absolutely hope-based.
This is not a statement of fact, but one of faith, and baseless faith at that. As far as battlecruisers go, Mel, that’s just cute. Did you see the fleet that was set out for the Empress? There are so many more like it, all of them ready to take on any small group of capsuleers that cross the line.
The entire Empire is conditioned to serve. Flat out. When Idonis Ardishapur gave the order do destroy Starkman Prime, did any of the people stand up to him? History doesn’t tell us. So, if they did, they’ve been erased from history. However, the whole fleet carried out his order.
It’s not just the slaves, but the common folk and lower holders that have the same conditioning to serve. It’s a fundamental basis of the Scripture–which I am going to point out keeps getting rewritten at the whim of the Theology Council and Empress.
The situation in the Tribes is somewhat different, as we know what a despot can do. However, I still do not believe that Shakor has reached such a level. However, if he should, or someone else should in the future, then the Tribes know how to wage a war.
At this point in time, Chakaid, a Paladin Deacon of the Theology Council is waging a public war against those capsuleers. It’s of words, but then again, a trial is just some words, too.
Some holders tried to stand up to Jamyl. They got put down. Uriam Kador went off on his own. He got his fleet taken away. The Purity of the Throne protested Catiz. They’re more or less dead.
Wishes are not intentions, and hope is not a plan. Please read, reread, and understand what Arrendis said.
I think this is best addressed elsewhere. However, even if Constantin is not doing it himself, there are plenty of Amarr that do.
This deserves to be said so many times. There are no Amarrian organizations that operate on a democratic basis. There are no bottom-up structures. The idea that the Empress serves the people is utterly, wholly, absolutely alien to the Amarr.
Listen, if military reclaiming is off the table and the Mary are staying on their side of the border and being absolutely zero threat, why are they even mentioned, let alone participating in this discussion?
Military reclaiming is off the table so long as the Tribes are strong enough to resist. If we ever become weak enough that the Amarr believe they can win, they will attack.
Impossible, since you seem to be intentionally misdirecting and moving the goalposts every time I try to address something you say.
lrn2read. “If you start something.”
Like I’ve told you a ton of times already, I don’t see what you’re referring to, it has nothing to do with my pride - and I will gladly say I do have a lot of it - and I’m starting to believe this is somekind of gaslighting tactic (more on that later) from yourself. I’ve tried to engage you in earnest, honest fashion, but you keep getting more and more hostile and frankly surreal in your ramblings.
Wasn’t it you who said to read between the lines? Well I did. You didn’t outright threaten us, but you implied we’d have a bad time “positioning us against all of you.”
Nice contrast with
Feeling is mutual, I doubt anybody in the Tribal council even cares about your clan of, freaking what, cod farmers? Maybe you should deinflate your ego on the importance of your petition. “consequences would ripple far beyond me and you.” Yet it sounds like it would hurt you far more than us.
What in the actual ■■■■? I’m not even sure if I should honor this drivel with any kind of response, as, again, this seems to be gaslighting and misdirection as well, so that I will have to defend myself against increasingly ludicrous claims until I get tired of it and give up. But no, there is no ulterior motive behind this, I used they as a generic pronoun, just because.
Sounds ike this is you, projecting.
I’ve received word though, that our clan is not pulling our support from the petition, as the intent behind is still sound and that, apparently, “you two can squabble until the end of the world if you lke.” Apparently at least some of our non-capsuleer brethren are finding each other more agreeable and sane.
The active threat is ALWAYS the Amarr Empire. We’ve been over this more times than you’ve drawn breath in your entire life.
And about 90% of this thread and the one before this one is playing directly into their hands.
This actually incredibly spot on. Plenty of people I’ve seen on the Summit are charming, some are perfectly decent people even. Then I find out that they support the Angel Cartel, Sansha, or whatever. The person might be nice, but entire empires aren’t that one person.
In the truest definition of the word - “someone who holds absolute power”, he is a despot. So is any Sanmatar, then. Despotism though is generally associated with tyranny and and oppression, and as such, I guess he can’t be called a despot, yet.
I don’t know who invited them here - in typical Amarr fashion, probably no one - but the Amarr are never “absolutely zero threat.” You know this. I know this. Everyone knows this. As Seraphea pointed out, they’re are being talked about because, well, I can only speak for myself, I see this whole thread a part of an effort to weaken the Tribes. Some might think they’re trying to weaken Shakor’s authority, but you can’t dislodge him by accusing Krusual collectively of what would amount to treason if done by an individual.
Except that ‘any’ Sanmatar wouldn’t normally wield absolute power. But for the emergency powers the Council has given him in this situation, the Sanmatar wields no direct power.
Any Sanmatar wields absolute power in an emergency that they themselves invoke. After of which they lose all power and another Sanmatar is supposed to be elected, if I remember the new titles mechanics right.
Sure. But he didn’t invoke emergency power, the Council did. How much you wanna bet that’s the excuse to keep his job?
I was being philosophical. Don’t know who invited Newelle - my guess is that he’s just butting in because he’d prefer peace so is actually trying to provide us a common enemy so we are less likely to provide the Empire an opening - but the Amarr should be mentioned in this thread. They absolutely are a threat and we absolutely can_not_ show them weakness.
That said, political disagreements are not necessarily a weakness in Minmatar, not traditionally. We can quarrel, yet fight a common enemy. The mistaken idea that “unity” means homogeneity and “loyalty” means never disagreeing needs to go back to the Empire where it belongs.
@Aeron_Morningstar: So noted, young Chief.
Because we both now have a stake in investigating Deathglow attacks that may be aimed at destabilizing both the internal and international relations of our respective nations.
I cannot believe I need to spell this out to all of you. Perhaps you are all so stuck in the mode of helping it along with the Empire you are struggling to put the brakes on when it happens to yourselves.
But you know what? You are right. I should have kept my mouth shut and let you turn on one another instead of try to prod you into doing the right thing.
See above. I did not say I do not approve of your agenda.