Arrests of Mikramurka Defense Officials

[Melisma_Ramijozana]

This is much more like the tone of conversation I’ve been wanting to have in this thread. Thank you, Sera.

@Seraphea_Vellastraan

Even if individual Amarr are caring people that do not want that, they don’t get a choice.

That’s not dissimilar to saying “even if individual Matari don’t want to live under the rule of a budding tyrant, they don’t get a choice.”

But we do get a choice. And the Amarr get a choice too. Governments serve at the will of the people. Always. When you see tyrants grow, that’s when that Sanmatar or that Empress or that Lord or that Khumatar has forgotten that fact. Government exists to serve its people. The people don’t exist to serve the government.

Rulers are, or should be, the ultimate public servants. They should represent the interests of their constituencies, and address the needs of those under their power. When rulers begin to serve their own interests rather than those of the people, then the people—these Amarr and Matari individuals—will replace them in a peaceful and lawful transfer of power. And if that peaceful transfer happens to fail, and these individuals appear before their respective governments in neatly fitted battlecruisers, well, who’s to say no changes will occur?

Indeed, Sera, the truth that these rulers fear is that we—all of the people, not just capsuleers—hold the power. We can hold them accountable, and we can dispose of them by any means at our hands.

@Seraphea_Vellastraan

But never, ever confuse the Amarr Empire with Amarr people .

You’re very right: the Amarr people will be the ones to stand and produce change. Not their governments.

Zashev’s fate might even prove an excellent expression of that. That’s why I’ve quite literally bet that Zashev will escape justice in some form of governmental failure. I want Lord Consort Newelle to observe these things I’m saying in real time. And he will.

@Seraphea_Vellastraan

As long as that Empire exists, it will always be a threat.

I agree here, too. I never said the Empire was not a threat. I said that it is not currently the active threat. To wit, it is not primary. We should focus all of our firepower on the primary, and go back to shooting the Empire later, if necessary.

@Seraphea_Vellastraan

How long before the Amarr you’re friends with are outcasts and outlaw because their Empire didn’t appreciate their point of view?

Counterpoint: Maybe my Amarr associates will become the leaders of a rejuvenated Empire, and those Holders and royals clinging to the old ways will be the ones cast out.

@Seraphea_Vellastraan

The Archbishop Constantin travels to Tribal space to try and convert Matari to the Amarrian faith.

Now this statement might be the only thing you said here that rings false. Constantin is Archbishop of the Hinterlands, which makes him a leadership figure over all the faithful in Republic space and pretty much everywhere else that isn’t Amarr. His role is an administrative one over an archdiocese that serves faithful who live in the Republic—whether former slaves who kept their faith, or recent additions. I’ve never seen him or any of his staff “convert” or “reclaim” any Matari. And I’ve never met a parishioner of theirs that was present against their will.

Personally, I despise the Amarr faith. And I’d rather not see it in the Republic. But it is already there; our returning sisters and brothers often keep to it, as you know. As long as a person is choosing to follow or keep to the faith of their own free will, I don’t think we can object to it.

So, insofar as Constantin is concerned at least, there’s no need to worry about a sinister plot to reclaim Matari via “travel to Tribal space” to tempt us into liking their god. I’m perfectly happy to vouch for him.

[Arrendis]

@Melisma_Ramijozana

Government exists to serve its people. The people don’t exist to serve the government.

You know this. I know this. This is a basic concept for us.

This is not a thing the Amarr Empire knows. It is not a thing the Amarr people know. Here’s what they know:

The Emperor or Empress exists to serve God.
The Empire exists to serve the Emperor or Empress.
The Amarr exist to serve the Empire.
Non-Amarr exist to be brought to heel and serve the Amarr.

[Seraphea_Vellastraan]

Everything you said about the Amarr Empire is absolutely hope-based.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

When rulers begin to serve their own interests rather than those of the people, then the people—these Amarr and Matari individuals—will replace them in a peaceful and lawful transfer of power.

This is not a statement of fact, but one of faith, and baseless faith at that. As far as battlecruisers go, Mel, that’s just cute. Did you see the fleet that was set out for the Empress? There are so many more like it, all of them ready to take on any small group of capsuleers that cross the line.

The entire Empire is conditioned to serve. Flat out. When Idonis Ardishapur gave the order do destroy Starkman Prime, did any of the people stand up to him? History doesn’t tell us. So, if they did, they’ve been erased from history. However, the whole fleet carried out his order.

It’s not just the slaves, but the common folk and lower holders that have the same conditioning to serve. It’s a fundamental basis of the Scripture–which I am going to point out keeps getting rewritten at the whim of the Theology Council and Empress.

The situation in the Tribes is somewhat different, as we know what a despot can do. However, I still do not believe that Shakor has reached such a level. However, if he should, or someone else should in the future, then the Tribes know how to wage a war.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

Counterpoint: Maybe my Amarr associates will become the leaders of a rejuvenated Empire, and those Holders and royals clinging to the old ways will be the ones cast out.

At this point in time, Chakaid, a Paladin Deacon of the Theology Council is waging a public war against those capsuleers. It’s of words, but then again, a trial is just some words, too.

Some holders tried to stand up to Jamyl. They got put down. Uriam Kador went off on his own. He got his fleet taken away. The Purity of the Throne protested Catiz. They’re more or less dead.

Wishes are not intentions, and hope is not a plan. Please read, reread, and understand what Arrendis said.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

Personally, I despise the Amarr faith. And I’d rather not see it in the Republic. But it is already there; our returning sisters and brothers often keep to it, as you know. As long as a person is choosing to follow or keep to the faith of their own free will, I don’t think we can object to it.

I think this is best addressed elsewhere. However, even if Constantin is not doing it himself, there are plenty of Amarr that do.

[Seraphea_Vellastraan]

@Melisma_Ramijozana

Government exists to serve its people. The people don’t exist to serve the government.

@Arrendis

You know this. I know this. This is a basic concept for us.

This is not a thing the Amarr Empire knows. It is not a thing the Amarr people know. Here’s what they know:

The Emperor or Empress exists to serve God.
The Empire exists to serve the Emperor or Empress.
The Amarr exist to serve the Empire.
Non-Amarr exist to be brought to heel and serve the Amarr.

This deserves to be said so many times. There are no Amarrian organizations that operate on a democratic basis. There are no bottom-up structures. The idea that the Empress serves the people is utterly, wholly, absolutely alien to the Amarr.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

Listen, if military reclaiming is off the table and the Mary are staying on their side of the border and being absolutely zero threat, why are they even mentioned, let alone participating in this discussion?

[Seraphea_Vellastraan]

Military reclaiming is off the table so long as the Tribes are strong enough to resist. If we ever become weak enough that the Amarr believe they can win, they will attack.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

My point.

[Teinyhr]

@Melisma_Ramijozana

lrn 2 read

Impossible, since you seem to be intentionally misdirecting and moving the goalposts every time I try to address something you say.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

I haven’t started anything.

lrn2read. “If you start something.”

@Melisma_Ramijozana

Now that I’ve corrected you several times, you see that you’re wrong,

Like I’ve told you a ton of times already, I don’t see what you’re referring to, it has nothing to do with my pride - and I will gladly say I do have a lot of it - and I’m starting to believe this is somekind of gaslighting tactic (more on that later) from yourself. I’ve tried to engage you in earnest, honest fashion, but you keep getting more and more hostile and frankly surreal in your ramblings.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

You’re also attempting to gaslight everyone in this thread by claiming that I threatened your clan.

Wasn’t it you who said to read between the lines? Well I did. You didn’t outright threaten us, but you implied we’d have a bad time “positioning us against all of you.”

@Melisma_Ramijozana

That’s a reminder that while you might think it’s a good idea to pull your entire clan from a petition they’ve already supported, merely because you’ve decided that you don’t like me , the consequences would ripple far beyond me and you.

Nice contrast with

@Melisma_Ramijozana

No one in Ramijanawa gives two fucks about your clan.

Feeling is mutual, I doubt anybody in the Tribal council even cares about your clan of, freaking what, cod farmers? Maybe you should deinflate your ego on the importance of your petition. “consequences would ripple far beyond me and you.” Yet it sounds like it would hurt you far more than us.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

Such as here. Pay attention to that word: “they.” I identify as female. If you wanted to pay any respect to me, you would have said “she.” Your choice of pronoun here is a deliberate attempt to dehumanize me. This, again, is manipulative. You might think you’re slick, but you’re actually transparent.

What in the actual ■■■■? I’m not even sure if I should honor this drivel with any kind of response, as, again, this seems to be gaslighting and misdirection as well, so that I will have to defend myself against increasingly ludicrous claims until I get tired of it and give up. But no, there is no ulterior motive behind this, I used they as a generic pronoun, just because.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

none of them are acting like scared children in the night,

Sounds ike this is you, projecting.

---

I’ve received word though, that our clan is not pulling our support from the petition, as the intent behind is still sound and that, apparently, “you two can squabble until the end of the world if you lke.” Apparently at least some of our non-capsuleer brethren are finding each other more agreeable and sane.

[Teinyhr]

@Melisma_Ramijozana

But right now, the active threat is not the Amarr Empire .

The active threat is ALWAYS the Amarr Empire. We’ve been over this more times than you’ve drawn breath in your entire life.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

Whatever powers are colluding to wreak havoc on our society have decided to divide us from within.

And about 90% of this thread and the one before this one is playing directly into their hands.

@Seraphea_Vellastraan

I get that it’s complicated, Melisma. You meet some people and they seem nice and fun. They let you into their home, are accommodating. I understand, totally. I like some of them, too. But never, ever confuse the Amarr Empire with Amarr people .

This actually incredibly spot on. Plenty of people I’ve seen on the Summit are charming, some are perfectly decent people even. Then I find out that they support the Angel Cartel, Sansha, or whatever. The person might be nice, but entire empires aren’t that one person.

@Seraphea_Vellastraan

The situation in the Tribes is somewhat different, as we know what a despot can do. However, I still do not believe that Shakor has reached such a level.

In the truest definition of the word - “someone who holds absolute power”, he is a despot. So is any Sanmatar, then. Despotism though is generally associated with tyranny and and oppression, and as such, I guess he can’t be called a despot, yet.

@Elsebeth_Rhiannon

Listen, if military reclaiming is off the table and the Mary are staying on their side of the border and being absolutely zero threat, why are they even mentioned, let alone participating in this discussion?

I don’t know who invited them here - in typical Amarr fashion, probably no one - but the Amarr are never “absolutely zero threat.” You know this. I know this. Everyone knows this. As Seraphea pointed out, they’re are being talked about because, well, I can only speak for myself, I see this whole thread a part of an effort to weaken the Tribes. Some might think they’re trying to weaken Shakor’s authority, but you can’t dislodge him by accusing Krusual collectively of what would amount to treason if done by an individual.

[Arrendis]

@Teinyhr

So is any Sanmatar, then.

Except that ‘any’ Sanmatar wouldn’t normally wield absolute power. But for the emergency powers the Council has given him in this situation, the Sanmatar wields no direct power.

[Teinyhr]

@Arrendis

Except that ‘any’ Sanmatar wouldn’t normally wield absolute power. But for the emergency powers the Council has given him in this situation, the Sanmatar wields no direct power.

Any Sanmatar wields absolute power in an emergency that they themselves invoke. After of which they lose all power and another Sanmatar is supposed to be elected, if I remember the new titles mechanics right.

[Arrendis]

Sure. But he didn’t invoke emergency power, the Council did. How much you wanna bet that’s the excuse to keep his job?

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

I was being philosophical. Don’t know who invited Newelle - my guess is that he’s just butting in because he’d prefer peace so is actually trying to provide us a common enemy so we are less likely to provide the Empire an opening - but the Amarr should be mentioned in this thread. They absolutely are a threat and we absolutely can_not_ show them weakness.

That said, political disagreements are not necessarily a weakness in Minmatar, not traditionally. We can quarrel, yet fight a common enemy. The mistaken idea that “unity” means homogeneity and “loyalty” means never disagreeing needs to go back to the Empire where it belongs.

@Aeron_Morningstar: So noted, young Chief.

[Aldrith_Shutaq]

@Elsebeth_Rhiannon

Listen, if military reclaiming is off the table and the Mary are staying on their side of the border and being absolutely zero threat, why are they even mentioned, let alone participating in this discussion?

Because we both now have a stake in investigating Deathglow attacks that may be aimed at destabilizing both the internal and international relations of our respective nations.

I cannot believe I need to spell this out to all of you. Perhaps you are all so stuck in the mode of helping it along with the Empire you are struggling to put the brakes on when it happens to yourselves.

But you know what? You are right. I should have kept my mouth shut and let you turn on one another instead of try to prod you into doing the right thing.

[Elsebeth_Rhiannon]

@Aldrith_Shutaq

You are right. I should have kept my mouth shut and let you turn on one another instead of try to prod you into doing the right thing.

See above. I did not say I do not approve of your agenda.

[Arrendis]

You want us to listen to you. Then maybe you shouldn’t have sucked up to Khanid. Maybe you shouldn’t have publicly done your level best to kowtow to Chakaid time and again. And maybe you shouldn’t have spent billions to assist the coverup. We don’t trust you, Aldrith. There’s plenty of Amarr I trust. We have no reason to trust you. We have no reason to listen to you.

[Teinyhr]

@Arrendis

How much you wanna bet that’s the excuse to keep his job?

Another possible excuse is a majority vote to retain him, though. But yeah more than likely that is the case so I’m not going to take that bet.

[Samira_Kernher]

@Aldrith_Shutaq

Because we both now have a stake in investigating Deathglow attacks that may be aimed at destabilizing both the internal and international relations of or respective nations.

Now? The Republic was the first hit by Deathglow attacks, not the Empire (well, unless you count Mabnen all those years ago). They’ve had a stake in it from the very start. First Rens, which the Republic has said it considers Lord Chakaid a suspect in, and now Mikramurka.

[Melisma_Ramijozana]

@Teinyhr

blah blah blah

You know what? I’m tired of trying to engage you here, and I’m not going to enable your manipulations. I’ve already made my point. You’re the problem.

@Seraphea_Vellastraan

This deserves to be said so many times.

I don’t disagree at all. In fact, the points Arrendis made about how the Empire operates serve as a balance to what I said. I suggested that the more openminded Amarr could be a force for change. Taken to its logical endpoint, that’s a change towards democracy.

And if you think that the Republic is any more democratic than the Empire, then you’re in for a surprise. We aren’t. The only difference between them and us right now is that we don’t tie any religion into our government.

@Elsebeth_Rhiannon

Listen, if military reclaiming is off the table and the Mary are staying on their side of the border and being absolutely zero threat, why are they even mentioned, let alone participating in this discussion?

This is a little hypocritical. We pop up in threads about Empire internal affairs all the time, whether to fan the flames or actually engage in rhetoric.

@Arrendis

Maybe you shouldn’t have publicly done your level best to kowtow to Chakaid time and again.

This is a good point, Newelle. The last time you kissed ass here on IGS, it was so gross that even your peers called you on it. You can’t have this both ways.

@Samira_Kernher

The Republic was the first hit by Deathglow attacks,

How much does it matter who got hit first? The end result is, we have a common goal and a common enemy. We ought to make use of that, even if only for efficiency’s sake.

[Samira_Kernher]

@Melisma_Ramijozana

This is a little hypocritical. We pop up in threads about Empire internal affairs all the time, whether to fan the flames or actually engage in rhetoric.

And it’s just as wrong then.

@Melisma_Ramijozana

How much does it matter who got hit first? The end result is, we have a common goal and a common enemy. We ought to make use of that, even if only for efficiency’s sake.

We ought to. But we won’t.