It won’t, because the competent players are impossible to gank profitably. It doesn’t matter how many suicide scan/tackle alts you have or how quickly you launch your attack if the expected value of the loot drop is less than the cost of destroying the ship.
Fair enough. That is a large part of flying competent.
Still, there are a few situations where something big and expensive needs to be moved and I wouldn’t want to try that if there was a suicide Blackbird sitting on every gate.
See, I agree, the double standard has to go.
I don’t care if a freighter dies because someone showed up and shot him with 20 of his friends.
I do however accept the point that it’s not reasonable for him to be held there by a single bumper for unlimited time. Once that starts it’s almost impossible to stop even if you have an escort. Basically they either need to suicide the bumper, which is unlikely given the ships usually employed on either side of this, or they need to bump the bumper, and they better get it right for the whole time it takes that thing to align at that point.
Which is why I’d suggest a module with a spool up that enables a targeted ship to enter warp without aligning. It’s still an escort, you know it’s happening, and once it’s active you either keep the ship tackled and gank it or it gets away, you had your chance and lost.
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No Mike…see I knew you were going to bring up the noob ship. As such I knew your 1-v-1 was ■■■■■■■■. Just as you are eliding over that fact that the gank fleet is why the bumper is bumping…
You always do this, dismiss things that are inconvenient for your narrative.
You can ask a friend vs. having multiple accounts.
See, you make assumptions that always favor your argument and dismiss those criticisms that don’t.
You really are someone who wants his cake and to eat it too.
Indeed and that first responsibility is to not overload one’s freighter. If you go to zkill, look up obelisks or some other freighter then click on the first ganked marker it will take you to all ganked ships…start looking at ganked freighters and JFs. You’ll see a shocking pattern they all have a huge cargo value.
Seriously these Very Concerned People need a nice strong cup of STFU. We’d all laugh if it was some moron putting officer modules on his ratting ship and getting ganked…but when it is a freighter with an equally foolish player…well it is of Very Serious Concern.
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^ this
To me it is pretty selfish to expect to survive a 1v10 gank. What about those other 10-20 players?
Talk about entitled!
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We aren’t talking about 10 to 1.
You can’t count the 10 until they show up. If they show up within a few minutes, great. Good Job.
If they don’t show up, it’s not reasonable that a single ship hold another hostage indefinitely. It needs to have some mechanism to provide a time limit.
This is where you are not even trying to discuss things. Let me point it out for you: Reasonable Timeframe.
Time frame for Freighter: less than 30 seconds. If he isn’t webbed into warp by then, he is almost certainly done.
Time Frame for Bumper: First bump is until he warps. After that, all day long so long as he continues to bump.
The initial timeframe, where both sides have seconds to react is fine. The second stage, where one side has no reasonable recourse to escape and the other has all day to have friends leisurely come back from their missioning or dinner or whatever… Not Ok.
It’s the second stage that is the issue. If the tackle was being achieved through normal means then the freighter and his escort could legally engage the tackle, and whoever wins, wins.
This is usually where you come up with BS about how they would not have escorts anyway… So what? If they choose not to be escorted they can die, but at least they were not denied the opportunity for a reasonable defense.
I recognize that it’s more difficult to manage 10-20 pilots than it is to manage 2-3. I suggest there can be a more reasonable timeframe than “I got him, get here when you feel like it”. There should be some urgency to get on station and get the juicy kill, or the gank was just underprepared and fails.
OP specifically mentioned them as part of the problem:
But in any case I think your mind game about how each step is separate is an lol joke so don’t bother typing it again 
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I think you give them too much credit. I suppose the whole “one more nerf” große Lüge is to blame. Just have a look at each Burn Jita. Freighters undock like lemmings. No connection to the meta or forums. Just how are they going to know there was even a change?
Cycle back to 2012 and the change to mining barges. After the change, a quite a few miners showed up to complain that their cargo rigs are now worthless and some even asked for compensation. (which didn’t happen). So how to players (so called carebear) who not involved in the conversation ask for nerfs?
A properly fitted DST (and skilled) does not die. Kill boards only record the bad fitted or the bad piloted.
Problem OP is pointing out is Unlimited Time, not Gank Fleet.
Stage 1— a few seconds on both sides, he is either bumped or in warp.
Stage 2-- does not really exist for the target, extends until the server shuts down for the bumper.
Proposed Solution: balance by introducing mechanic to limit stage 2 from eternity to a few minutes. Ample time to gank if gank is going to occur or the engagement is over, one way or another.
Everyone in the discussion understands the issue, however there’s divergence on whether CCP is responsible to solve the problem for players, or whether the players should solve the problem themselves.
While there is a perspective that looks at it from the inconvenience caused to the bumped player, there is also a view that there shouldn’t be a shift in that inconvenience to (1) gankers from a change and (2) to other freighter pilots who do actually take their own safety seriously, through reduced competitive advantage.
A lot of us just don’t agree that lazy, incompetent freighter pilots deserve more assistance from CCP. They should get good and avoid being bumped, and stop making themselves attractive targets, like the good freighter pilots do.
How does a solo freighter pilot avoid getting bumped. When the only answer is log off (and hope they don’t bump you again while aligning after you log back in) there is a problem.
Because when we are discussing bumping we are talking about a solo bumper.
Don’t be solo.
Aside from that, if there is no alt or friends to call on and must fly a freighter solo - max tank it. Don’t overload it. Check killboards, pull API jump/kills endpoint data, Dont autopilot. Check antigank and gank intel channels. Ask in chats if there is activity (though that would generally be done on an alt). Lurk in gank chat channels. etc. Don’t make yourself a target - or - be less juicy than the other whales flying about.
Indeed. As does a properly fitted and piloted Blockade Runner in highsec. Neither has any reasonable chance of being exploded in highsec with attentive and competent play and proper preparation.
There are alternate hauling options than the freighter, which is awesome at hauling large loads, but has the tradeoff it is vulnerable to bumping. Bumping in itself is nothIng but a nuisance, but does make it risky to haul very expensive loads as you can be pinned down long enough for a fleet to arrive to explode you for profit. And given the crazy amount of EHP one of these things can have, this vulnerability seems completely reasonable to me and creates gameplay around contesting freighters.
Should there be some mechanism to limit perma-bumping in highsec? Maybe, and I have no problem with some reasonable limit to the time a freighter can be held in space, one that still allows time for a criminal fleet to arrive. But of all the problems with the game, such a minor concern is way, way down the list of things to fix. Bumping requires near complete attention on the part of the bumper meaning it already has an in-built cost of time/attention to discourage frivolous use of the mechanic so it almost never goes on for longer than necessary to attempt a ransom or gank a ship. And if the ship is valuable enough to gank, it is valuable enough to sacrifice cheap suicide points which are already effectively used every 15 minutes to prevent logoff escape. A time limit to bumping will not give the freighter pilots much of any of the additional safety they want and there is no evidence that freighters need any additional buffs given how common they are in any case.
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So 1v1 the bumper gets all the advantages. And can keep the freighter pilot at their mercy all day with no counterplay options. And you don’t see any issues… That about says all it needs to about your stake in the game.
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A 1v1 bumper is no threat whatsoever to a freighter. Not much advantage at all. A bumper that is solo, that isn’t working with other players/characters to set up a gank or dual, can do nothing but inconvenience, just as there are many ways in the game to inconvenience others.
But at the end of the day, a 1v1 bumper is impotent. Completely powerless to affect a freighter beyond hampering its navigation for a bit. As a freighter pilot, who cares.
However, without data as proof, I think it’s fair to suggest that a true solo bumper, is kind of unusual. Most are already working with other players/characters because it’s the threat of space violence that encourages the payment of ransom, or that actually leads to a gank to access loot.
In that case, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If one side needs multiple characters to be effective, it’s just as fine for the other to do so as well.
Rubbish.
A 1 v 1 bumper stops the freighter doing what they want. A Freighter pilots isk depends on getting to their destination, they could be facing billions of collateral. That is absolutely a threat to a freighter pilot. Even if we ignore ganking there is credible cost and risk to the freighter pilot being bumped.
The 1 bumper can stop all that with no counter play.
And it absolutely does happen, bumpers try and use the spectre of an impending gank (without there actually being any gankers on grid or even in system) to ransom freighter pilots. Exactly how often this happens… who knows, go explain to me how one could honestly get real metrics on this viably other than being a CCP Dev, and I’d be interested in seeing those actual metrics. But I know 100% that this is a thing that gets done.
This is nothing about ganking, we aren’t talking about multiple pilots needed on the bumpers side. Now sure… they ‘could’ but that isn’t the scenario we are talking about.
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So what?
The game is competitive. It’s not a bleeding heart, make everything safe game designed to allow everyone to just float around in space as they like.
If the freighter pilot wants to control the risk, then control the risk. They need to stop being “woah is me”, lazy and incompetent players.
I get it. There are always going to be different opinions, but don’t ruin the competitive nature of the game by continuously bowing to the tears of terrible players.
So explain to me how a freighter pilot can control the risk of a bumper without an alt at present.
If Freighters could fit a full fitting including prop mods, agility rigs, etc, then I’d consider that sufficient counter-play options, and if they then didn’t bother fitting any of those things that would be their fault.
But when literally the only option given in this entire thread is ‘just log off, and hope they don’t start bumping you again when you log on again’ that isn’t a competitive game. That’s a game being entirely biased to one side of a 1v1 competition.
So, it’s not unreasonable to expect & ask for some means for the freighter pilot to actually compete, rather than just be a floating soccer ball in space.
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See my earlier post, but an alt is the best way. Again, so what?
Yeah sure you would. And someone else would be whinging instead.
So to compete with one person a freighter pilot has to have two… Gotcha. So much for your earlier statements about if one side has to have multiple people so should the other side. Apparently that argument only applies when it’s in the gankers favour.