I finally got around to trying out your Vaga fit for blood base (HAC V + perfect gunnery skills) and it works really well. Went through in 5 minutes, and I think I can do better if I lower transversal on the sentinals at the beginning instead of just orbiting Ashimmu (had to OH tank for both sents, but only takes about ~50% damage). Thanks for the fit.
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Vagabond VS Ashimmu
Had to OH the booster for 4 cycles (HAC V) until the sentinels were down. No drugs/booster whatsoever. A solid fit. Took me ~6min
Note: I havenāt done any Burner missions before.
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Not sure what the rest of your skills are like, but I found OH the hardener and guns for the first sentinal was sufficient (sometimes I pull some really ā ā ā ā rng on the booster heat damage and hardener you can essentially forget about because of the cycle times).
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the rest of my skills is pretty much maxed out (except the med AC specialization).
jeez. sureā¦ i didnāt even think about OH the hardener. it was too obvious. there is always a next time i guess. thanks for pointing it out.
Can the Burner Talos Serpentis still be done in an AF? Was thinking taking an Enyo or Harpy in to try
Iāve been having trouble with the Minmatar team mission lately. Iād orbit the Jaguar at 30 km as usual, and the little logi shits would either scoot outside my lock range (2x guidance computers) or missile range (sebo+guidance computer). This is sometimes a minor annoyance, but sometimes it really screws with completion time. Especially if the orbit puts you at >40 km at times, you just stare at the screen like āwhat evenā while they nullify your entire damage in 15 seconds. Very annoying. Iād orbit the logi at 30 instead and of course thatād work, but that also takes you to less than 30 km from Jaguar at parts of your orbit, which is supposedly where your ship might get eaten alive by RNJesus.
Iāve tried various other things, manual piloting, ECM bullshittery (worked fine on test server, had less than stellar results on live), theorycrafting, but I just couldnāt really put my finger on anything efficient. So I finally decided to test the whole āwrecking shot of doomā thing going on with the Jaguar.
One thing to keep in mind is that the wrecking shot hits for 1386 damage, always. The polarized Garmur fit has an HP of around 2200, depending on skills. That means youāll survive a single wrecking shot- to kill you, the Jaguar needs to land two shots within the time it takes you to kill the Bursts and Jag, making it exponentially unlikelier. With that in mind, I quickly rolled a test Garmur build to get shot at by a Jaguar.
Test Garmur fit
[Garmur, test]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Small āTrapperā Shield Extender
Small āTrapperā Shield Extender
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Polarized Rocket Launcher
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
Small Capacitor Control Circuit II
Small Transverse Bulkhead II
Small Transverse Bulkhead II
This fit has the same signature radius, speed and resists as the team Garmur fit. It has a bit of extra buffer to take the wrecking hit and is cap stable with MWD+SSB so that it can keep spinning around the Jaguar indefinitely while patching up the hits. Bulkheads are there for a bit of extra buffer without hurting sig radius or speed, but I havenāt even gotten into armor once.
Garmur fit in the guide uses an enduring MWD, but itās interchangeable with a restrained MWD for less sig increase while remaining cap stable. The sig radius doesnāt affect the damage you take when you get hit, but it should still affect your chance of getting hit.
I started off with a 20 km orbit. It took the Jaguar a good 11 minutes to land the first shot. However, the second hit landed 5 minutes later, and a third hit about 4 minutes later. So at this point it was clear this was not a gamble I wanted to take. I went out to 25 km and went AFK for about an hour.
Apparently the first hit landed only 2 minutes after I was on a stable 25 km orbit, and the second one followed in 14 minutes. And after that, not a single hit for the remaining 43 minutes, before I warped off to look at my log files. Thatās enough time to run that mission 9 or 10 times, and it would have gone on longer if I hadnāt decided to finish the test.
Now that was a rather quick test and I donāt have any fancy data, graphs or analysis to show for it. But I think itās clear that the RNG threat is blown way out of proportion, considering the hassle of dealing with logi out of range. Even if youāre not comfortable with a 25 km orbit, there are ways to minimize the time you spend within effective range of the Jaguar, losing your ship is a practical impossibility. Even if you have to warp out once every 10 missions, itās compensated by spending less time killing the Bursts aka little shits. Iāve never been triggered so much in Eve that I had to go do actual research about it. Also if bad words arenāt censored itās on the forum, they look uncensored on preview IDK.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk etc etc 25 km orbit starts at 12:39
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you can also use a targeting range rig.
And yes, the chance to be shot is not very high.
The issue is however, the chance to be shot twice; more precisely, the chance to be shot a second time before you do anything allowing you to take it, when you are shot.
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Yeah but Iād also have to swap out the explosion velocity rig, and with Bursts any application helps, even using Javelins.
And my point is that, that chance is extremely, extremely low given the overall probability of getting hit at all. It can be even further reduced if you like, e.g. going out to 30 km orbit after taking down the first or second logi.
Anyway I just thought Iād share my experience with it, itās up to each individual how they decide to deal with it.
Edit: Looking back at the logs, I did get hit 2.5 minutes apart, once at 20 km and once at 25. I considered going out to 25 km orbit a cut-off point but thatās still an incident where I got shot twice in a short timeframe. I guess Iāll leave it to spin the Jaguar for some more time later to get more data.
You donāt get it.
You still have a chance to lose your ship.
The question is : what is that chance ?
The chance to be shot at by the jaguar seems to be, in your case : 3 hits over 60 min, so over 1800 shots from the jaguar (2s rof).
that means one chance out of 600, per shot, to be hit.
Assuming the condition remains the same for 20s after being shot (time to realize, take action, lag, ship changing trajectoryā¦) then this means, if you are shot, there are 10 more shots that can hit you.
The chance to NOT be hit after that initial crit, for 10 more shots, is (599/600)^10 = 0.983
This means, whenever you take a crit, you have 1.65% chance to be shot again during the next 20s
Assuming the kill lasts 2min only, you take one crit every ten burners (10 burners = 20 mins = 60min/3 , the average time between crits) ; and one crit out of 60 will make you lose your ship since you will be critted again after 20s. Therefore every 600 burners you will lose one ship.
Of course it you take 6 min to kill the burner, itās 200 burners per ship, and if the data are wrong and you actually take one crit every 10 min instead of 20, it becomes 100 burners per ship loss(actually even less).
Of course it depends on the actual chance.
But I wouldnāt be in crit range for the entire duration of the mission. If I only need to orbit the Jaguar <30 km while killing the first logi, that gives it a window of 90-100 seconds per mission to land the two successive shots. Or I could be orbiting one of the logi at 30 km and phasing in and out of Jaguarās range (usually no closer than 27 km), which could well reduce that duration by half. And the numbers I have are for 25-26 km, each additional km would make the risk much lower due to falloff mechanics. Overall, the 600 burners per ship loss doesnāt sound unreasonable, which would be more like 2400 as the other burners pose no risk whatsoever. Iād probably sooner screw up my piloting and lose one anyway, before I got double comboād by a Jag. Then there are also the cases where I can do fine by orbiting 30 from the start because the rats are nicely clustered.
For a while I did perfectly fine orbiting the Jaguar at 30 km. But lately Iāve had a lot of cases where theyād be out of range without a clear way of getting them in line. Last time I attempted with dual MGC and a signal amplifier, but still the logi ended up 43-44 km from me, I actually ragequit that mission. Thatās the reason Iām pushing this footnote for the 30 km thing, from what I see at least, there is definitely some wiggle room to it. Iāll try to run a longer test with other ranges though.
Well its up to you to decide what is worth, and what is not.
I can relate that sometimes one, or two of the logis, go out of targeting range, but I just need to wait a bit to lock them again.
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I havenāt run team burners in years but from what I remember I always orbited the Jaguar at around 25km. 30km and anywhere near it felt too far, esp if all the range-related missile supports werenāt to 5 yet (which I may not have completed yet when I started garmuring the team burners, mighta had a mix of 4s and 5s way back then).
That said, everyone has to pick their own exact range theyāre comfortable with. Good research there on the 20 vs 25 of it all, but yeahā¦ both beat 30ā¦ dem logifrigs, like you said.
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FWIW my orbit distances are:
Hawk - 20500
Enyo - 20500
Vengeance - 18000
For Jaguar I found the orbit distance requirement (aroud 25k) made the mission too slow to complete - as sometimes you would get unlucky and have a logi sit right on the edge of range. So, I now run Burner Jaguar using a Vengeance, and itās just as fast as the other three.
Garth
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Iāve also noticed that Burner Jag is behaving differently lately. The Bursts are constantly drifting out of range, even with a 25km orbit on the Jag. Iāve also received 3 wrecking hits in one day of missioning (fortunately not altogether!). But sometimes it seems to work okay? Either way, the Garmurās performance vs Burner Jag is less than stellar. Think Iāll try the closer orbit Nergal. Anyone tried that and would care to offer any tips?
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Can I ask what is perhaps a noobie question - why is it that nobody posts fits with drones against Anomic Team ? I would have thought perhaps a Tristan might do well ?
Or do they just not get enough DPS ?
with a tristan the AF burner is just going to kill the drones. TBH not even worm drones stand up in those missions.
need something that can tank and brawl at which point you can use drones as you probably do enough damage aggro doesnāt swap, and if it does you can recall them.
And the other main option that most people use is to kite at 20ish km
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Great thanks for the heads up
Clearly my skills suck as I have tried a Kestrel and a Wolf both orbiting at 21km and got nowhere breaking the tank on one of the auxiliaries ā¦ Iāll need to regroup.
the kestrel only works when you ecm one logi out of business.
Havenāt read all replies so maybe somebody else has already pointed out this:
You can replace the third factional Ballistic Control System on the garmur with a compact one if you have lv V Launcher Rigging (with a compact MWD and a compact TP). This lowers your dps by less than 3% while saves you 100mil isk.
Another option to compensate for lacking the skill is to use an āInceptionā Target Painter. Itās still cheaper than a factional BCS by several dozen million isk.