we had HAW guns and they used to murder battleships
them ccp nerfed the tracking
i bet the still kinda work , but there is a lot of time i don’t use them
There is a reason for that
A handful of sub capital ships with things like neuts or tracking disruptors ( trig guns HATE those) or hell, a couple long range falcons that could t be hit by the trig ships at all would have made that a different fight and this thread would not be a thing.
It actually demonstrates that CCP did something right, capitals arent instant win buttons any more. Groups should be thinking of having friends or alts in a small number of specialized support ships.
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So, people sometimes mock other people’s ideas/failings in a sarcastic way -which is known as being snarky. I know it’s kind of difficult to wrap ones head around this new argumentative technique that has rarely been seen on the internet before, but it’s worth understanding, as Mr Epeen could really use it to great effect in his future trolling. So, let’s look at an example.
Arum Liz was drawing parallels to real life in order to argue that capitals should be more powerful and less vulnerable to capital ships. In response, I argued that trying to make a game adhere more closely to reality would not necessarily result in a balanced and fun game.
She failed to address my counterpoint, and persisted in making the same argument (see the comment immediately before mine).
So, I out of exasperation, I sarcastically complained about the lack of realism in popular genres. Of course, a sarcastic tone is more difficult to detect in text, but context can often provide signs that someone is being snarky… And if they include a comic that essentially restates their argument in a humorous way, then that’s usually a pretty big ■■■■■■■ clue. I mean, in the last panel, Gordon Freeman breaks a first aid kit over his head and says, “realistic.”
[And since a playful tone can also often be lost in text, know that I’m being playful with this response.]
Oh, and Mr. Epeen. Thank you for providing supporting evidence for my assertion. Maybe next time, try pointing your arguments at the people that actually need to see them.
Mr Shipwreck Jones 
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Where did i say “invulnerable”?
But 6 BS’s definitely must shouldnt survive 4(!!!) supercarriers.
Well… if 6 BS’s is “numbers” now…
And 4 supercarriers not enough for “numbers”???
I know we both have sunglasses, but I’m not Mr. Epeen.
Also my comment is not so much snarky, just more genuine puzzlement, since there is little realism in a sci-fi game with god-like clones using spaceships with submarine physics.
Basically, I don’t see how EVE is more realistic than the shooters and platformers you mentioned. Both are fiction.
But I agree that sarcasm and “playful” tones does carry badly through the forums. Doesn’t help, when every single regular thinks everyone is out there to get them.
Just to clarify, I’m not necessarily saying you are pointing out that eve is realistic. Your post can be interpreted as sarcastic, which is fine. My initial posts was more a general notion, since as can be seen in this thread, there are some people who consider eve a realistic game.
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Supers need subcaps to be effective.
But subcaps no need supers
Logic?
You literally define capital ships as a burden.
Same as they shoudnt be underpowered dummies for beating.
If every pilot suddenly sit in super some day, we just be witneses of cap ships PVP.
What’s bad here?
And yeah, they should be flagships but now they diying within 1 minute from dreadbomb or multiple doomsday (if we talking about cap-to-cap fights.)
Nothing strange here.
But why caps cant protect themselvs from insects???
Carriers in EVE dont have guns.
At all.
carriers and dreads are kinda analogs to siege weapons
imagine age of empires
you can take 10 archers with 10 cavalries
but if the enemy have a tower or a wall , them you need a battle ram
you can use a awesome embraer super toucan to combat small insurgent groups. a top of the line fighter is to expensive and to fast , that said the light aircraft cant fight a modern super sonic, missile equipped, fighter
in large scale eve combat one must think more like a total war general …
Capital ship need an escort fleet
Otherwise, in real life, we would have fleet base around battleship instead of carrier
I’m not Russian, and I think caps and titans should indeed be the apex predator.
Bigger ships take more metal, among other things. They should be tough, and they should apply damage like no other.
6 battleships should stand exactly 0 chance against two supers, a regular carrier and 2 dreads.
No if’s, and’s or but’s about it.
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You’re repeatedly appraising the situation with zero appreciation for any nuance or complexity, and want everything in simple to understand black and white terms. This kind of world-view isn’t compatible with Eve. Your opinions are far too simplistic to hold any value.
Just because they don’t absolutely need supercaps in all circumstances, doesn’t mean they can’t benefit from them a lot in many circumstances.
But 6 BS’s definitely must shouldnt survive 4(!!!) supercarriers.
There’s a difference between any 6 BS flown by idiots vs a carefully crafted comp of 6 BS flown by highly skilled pilots who understand how to counter capitals.
But why caps cant protect themselvs from insects???
They can, under the right circumstances of being properly fit, against not too many insects and having the proper support systems to bail them out. Denying the existance of capitals having allies that support them is disingenous.
0 nuance. This view suggests that trade-offs between PVE and PVP effectiveness, any clever theorycrafting to counter an opponent’s strategy, or the effects of superior/inferior combat skills should be ignored in the favour of BIG SHIP = WIN.
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They definitely should when they are properly supported with links/implants like those Battleships were in that video. I honestly am surprised that other Capital pilots haven’t relieved those Cap pilots of their Caps. They don’t seem to know how to fly them. I think that is generally how it goes, most Cap pilots aren’t really good at the game.
people don’t really understand tracking
its super simple
saying that because a BIG ship is formidable , but it needs scouting , else a group of small ships can easily win
i bet 10 battleships vs 8 battleships + 1dread/carrier … same price … favors team 2
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I found it in AV, it was broken.
Nuance?
It’s a simple matter of understanding that caps have more structure and shields than any smaller ship is capable of. They have more computing power and power core to operate everything from weapons systems to sensors.
I don’t care how they’re fit, 6 battleships should not be able to stand up against 2 super carriers, a regular carrier and 2 dreadnaught.
Ship for ship, caps should wipe the floor with a battleship, especially in a prolonged encounter.
I’ve seen this argument a hundred times, and at the end of the day you have one side that is jealous of cap pilots and wants to nerf them to the ground, or outright erase them.
The other side usually thinks caps should be invincible against everything except other caps.
I’m somewhere in the middle. Carrier fighters are essentially frigates. 27 frigates should be able to wipe out a battleship with little problem.
In the case above, there were more than 60 fighters on field, and the battleships stood their ground.
That should be impossible.
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The cap group had truly awful tactics. Despite having so many fighers on grid, they didn’t send them in all at once to overwhelm the leshaks with numbers. They lemming’d them in in small groups so the leshaks could defang them easily. Once the leshaks pulled range and force the disadvantage of fighter travel time, the caps didn’t also reposition back into a favourable position. Their support ships just suicided fruitlessly onto grid tackling things that weren’t dying anyway.
Where’s the attempt to use spearfishing to separate and cripple spider-tanking ships? Where’s the ewar ships like pilgrims or scorpions to range disrupt or ECM the leshaks to interrupt logi, break spooling and provide cover for the fighters to close distance?
I guarantee you that if you swapped the resources available to both sides it would be a massacre in favour of iBeast’s group again, because he’s a very skilled pilot and FC, and the jokers in caps were awful.
You repeatedly deny all agency in the form of proper piloting skill (or lack of it).
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Battleships having trouble killing fast frigates is a thing. So this makes sense to me. Bulls vs. matadors. Have you ever seen a mockingbird chasing away a single raven? It’s a thing.
Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
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I’ve never used fighters, but aren’t they just big, fat drones? THEY are easy to kill, I would guess.
If you want to kill battleships, bring some of your own, or a cloud of cruisers.