Caracal nerf, why?

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
61

You really need to read and digest what I wrote.

I don’t PVP, I’m talking about PVE players getting shafted because PVP players can’t deal with it and go crying to CCP.

I now use Lasers for missioning so I don’t have RLML issues.

My 2 main missioning ships are now a Harbinger NI and a Paladin.

But might try a Golem when Carriers are finished.

As for admitting they’re a problem, no they’re not, you’re the problem that can’t deal with a single ship.

Same as people who get ganked are always told, git gud, deal with it.

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TLDR : “I am entitled to play whatever I want and the game must be imbalanced for me to enjoy it”.

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63

You don’t PvP, but you’re going to tell players who do PvP how they are wrong about ship balance when it comes to PvP? And you’re going to do it without providing any evidence to counter their claim… I mean other than your self-admitted lack of expertise? That’s some next level arrogance.

As for PvE: so the meta changed, find the next best ship. But the meta hasn’t changed: the Vexor has been the superior PvE T1 cruiser for… umm… I can’t remember the last T1 cruiser I used for PvE that wasn’t a Vexor. Unless I’m on an alpha account since I can’t use T2 drones. But then I switch to faction drones, so I’m still using a Vexor. Because the Vexor is just the best PvE T1 cruiser in the game.

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64

No, I did not say that. I said, there is a ship, that would be better for that task of snatching a Caracal, because this ship will make fun of rapid jesus launchers and slice a Carcal in half.

I give you a hint, it is also a shield boat. And has spikes on.

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Please post the fit (There’s a 0% chance you’re a holding a monopoly on the knowledge of a frigate that could engage a Caracal prenerf).

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You forget one pertinent thing, reading.

Plus the fact that whenever a ship is “rebalanced” it affects other play and not just PVP.

I also mentioned that I had moved on, but still have a Caracal in my hangar because I still love it after all these years (12). It was a cracking little mission ship. until the loading nerf and then the alliances started to use them for doctrine fleets.

One more thing, another will rise in the meta, and it’ll get “rebalanced” by the whining players who can’t be bothered to work out how to deal with it, I mentioned above about bringing another Caracal fleet to fight fire with fire, but somehow that isn’t acceptable.

Or is it just that you need to be able to totally overwhelm whoever you’re fighting, rather than go skill for skill on the battlefield?

Another player has given you all hints, which ofc you’re all ignoring.

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We’re too dumb to figure out your hints.

Please humiliate us and post the Frigate loadout that could tackle an RLM Caracal pre nerf.

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Keres or Sentinel could do it, but there’s a dicey bit of the approach.

And that’s tackling a lone crackle. Against a gang with multiple anti tackle platforms, it’s basically impossible. You need cruiser tackle. HICs for preference.

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I lost a 100MN Maller last night (I was completely afk on the gate while typing on the forums LOL).

You can see from the rigs that it used to be a 500 MN Maller. Since the caracal nerf it was downgraded to 100MN for regular baiting.

The 500MN Maller was used as “Ram-Jag” except with a battleship sized tank instead of a Jaguar’s Assault Frig tank.

It was used only for tackling Caracals/Orths and Cerbs.

Post Nerf Caracal gangs can be tackled by Halo + Strong X-instinct Assault frig (without dying) or a dual prop Fleet Ceptor (without dying) with a single Rodiva spamming reps on your from 75km, so the 500MN Meme Maller was retired and she died a quiet death while I was afk on the gate last night.

If they’re all fit and rigged for anti frigate (guidance comps), then they have no tank or speed (usually no tank), a gang of tier 1 fit thrashers can alpha them off the field.

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I forgot no such thing. But you have provided no evidence… other than your self-admitted lack of expertise. Please cite the source of your evidence… a link to what you read.

Yeah, but your example is still pure bovine excrement. Every null sec recommends the following PvE track: Vexor to Myrmidon to Ishtar. Do you see a caracal anywhere in that track? Nope, I don’t even see one Caldari ship listed…

I want you to read what you just posted. Now read it again. Alliances started using the caracal as a doctrine ship after a nerf. Alliances almost always follow the meta… because there is a reason for a meta. And they started using it after it had been nerfed.

Great job blowing up your own argument about how it did not need nerfed.

Do you know why that’s not acceptable? Because that’s not balance. If anything that’s admitting a ship is so problematic that there is no counter to it… other than itself. That’s basically the definition of overpowered.

Umm… that’s what the caracal did… it overwhelmed the battlefield so much that skill really didn’t matter. Again, as you pointed it: it became the meta even after a nerf…

Not ignoring it. We’re laughing at the ridiculous idea that balance means bringing a 130 million ISK frigate to counter a 15 million ISK cruiser.

Do you seriously think that is balanced? A ship is so powerful that the suggested counter costs over 8 times its cost…

One last thing: I don’t care. This is an appeal to nostalgia argument fallacy. And I value argument fallacies about as much as I value the opinion of someone who is a self-admitted non-expert.

TL;DR:
You claim to have knowledge via reading, but provide no link to your “proof”.

You blow up your own argument by mentioning that Caracals were still the meta after they were Rapid launchers were initially nerfed.

Your first recommended counter is to bring the same ship as if that’s actually balance…

Your second recommended counter costs over 8 times as much…

Your points are pretty much bovine excrement.

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71

When you resort to insults, you’ve already lost the argument/discussion.

Blocked.

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Didn’t insult you… other than saying your argument was bovine excertment. And since I point out the flaws in your argument, I’d say I’m justified in calling it that.

And no, you didn’t block me because I insulted you… or you would have blocked a lot more people already. You blocked me because you can’t honestly justify a balanced counter to a 15 million ISK cruiser is a 130 million ISK frigate.

And let me tell you why you ended up in this situation. Your self-admitted lack of expertise. Someone else hinted at this counter and you read it. That was your evidence.

But see… you didn’t actually look into the claim. You saw someone who agreed with you and let your confirmation bias work instead of actually looking into the facts of the matter… you didn’t even look to see the value of the ship.

You can claim I lost the argument, but I’m not the one who flounced. I’m not the one who couldn’t answer a basic question about balance between two ships based on cost.

By the way, I’m still going to continue to post counters to any bovine excrement you post on. Because facts matter… even if you don’t like them.

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73

well, not even counted that the Caracal is far from being “unusable” now. You can still get the range back, but now you actually sacrifice something for it. Either speed or tank or dps.

And when it comes to PvE, there are more than capable alternatives to a RLM Caracal. Heck, many ships are even straight better.

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Bellicose will always beat a Caracal (pre and post nerf) if you’re doing RLML PvE. A single faction paint = dead frigate rats.

75

says the guy who’s comprehensively lost the argument?
really, dude?

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76

I didn’t though, you just convinced yourself I did.

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I am in Null and when the intel channels light up with news of a potential RLML boat in the area I automatically jump into my Crucifier. If I know there will be another tackler I fit out with three disruptors with range scripts, otherwise I go long point and two disruptors. Keep distance, get the disruptors on it and let someone braver than me get into scram range.

Going with three application scripts can work too if I know I can stay 50km+.

Incidentally, many years ago on another account I put forward a suggestion of having gunnery versions of rapid launchers (ie a Medium fitting gun system that used small ammo). Guess what? It got poo-poo’d, but yet nobody even considered getting rid of RLML. The Caldari fanbois were livid at the suggestion, but the other three races weren’t allowed to have a high application medium fit system.

As it stands at the moment, I think it seems well balanced.

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  1. rapid are not caldari specific
  2. what is the highest application a cruise missile fit raven can have on a frigate with only say 5 modules dedicated to application ? Then a torpedo one ? Then an hyperion blaster fit ? Then a megathron rail fit ?
    Then a raven RHML fit ?
79

OK. At the time Caldari were the missile crew. Nobody else had missile bonusses worth a toss. Everyone else had to rely on drones as a secondary weapon system to deal with frigs. Gunships still do. Cruisers could fit application modules like tracking enhancers and TCs to help.

Stuff changed, and as I say. Things seem quite balanced atm.

80

Seems like this just goes to show.

If Gideon Zendikar complains about Rapid Lights long enough, eventually they got nerf’d.

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