screw frigates! they got ridiculously buffed with warp core stab max 1 cap, hulk high slot nerfs and MJDs.
covops can’t buffer cloak input so any T3C gets instalocked in the time it takes an input to reach Iceland and back so that you can actually cloak your covops, and even if you do, they just bump you out of warp
anything that with a faster lock than NA ping needs to have a counter
and I’m not risking a 1.5bil missile boat to escort a covops through lowsec
and even if you’re expecting instalock their T2Ds can just boosh
they do, to a certain extent, generally only one class down. But there are exceptions.
As a very general rule, Destroyers will wreck Frigates, Cruisers will wreck Destroyers. Battlecruisers make Cruiser pilots very sad and Battleship pilots will dunk on Battlecruisers. Of course, there are exceptions and pilot skill (not just trained SP skills, but actual player skill) can alter this balance quite heavily in some circumstances.
Cruisers will also usually demolish Frigates, depending how they’re fit.
It’s only really long range weapon system cruisers/BC/BS that have serious trouble with lone or small numbers of frigates. An AB Hookbill can happily get under the guns of an Arty Cane or most Battleship sized weapon systems. Mind you, closing that gap is a risky proposition, mess it up and you’re in a pod in one good shot.
When Frigates start wrecking cruisers, that cruiser is usually lacking in damage application (webs, paints, tracking enhancers etc).
What makes RLML really obnoxious is the combination of range, rate of fire and stupidly good application, without the need for application mods. It doesn’t matter how good the frigate pilot is, pre-nerf, once they’re in range of RLML they have very little chance to escape unless they’re really on the ball and piloting in such a way as to reduce their align time.
It wasn’t uncommon for an RLML Caracal or Cerb to blow an interceptor away before they could align and warp (not from a standstill, but while moving at 5km/s+ with the MWD flaring.
Tackling common RLML platforms was, and still is, a very dicey and ticklish affair. Note the nerfed stat was to missile VELOCITY, so even heating an MWD you were unlikely to be able to outrun those rapid lights, or at least pull enough range so they’d run out of fuel before hitting you.
In close, RLML are still a very powerful anti tackle weapon system. But at least us frigate pilots have a hope of either getting away or being able to hold tackle until the cavalry arrives.
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This here is the crux of the argument with which I agree. I you want to pwn frigs outside of their point range, then fit application and range modules (guidance computers/enhancers and target paints) and rigs.
As it was, the Caracal, Cerb and Orth could fit a monster tank + monster damage + monster speed because there was nothing forcing them to fit application modules and rigs to blap frigates.
The only frigate that could go near these behemoths was the Vengeance, in an AB + cap booster + 2 Deadspace A-type armor repairers with a reactive hardener and ADCU.
And this vengeance would still die after 40-45 seconds. You shouldn’t need a 200m+ blinged out frigate to hold a point on a 10 million ISK tier 1 fit Caracal (and still die!)!
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Now that the patch has had a little bit of time to settle, wanted to share some info about the patch specifically related to your comments.
The main issue we were concerned about were the Rapid Lights themselves, not necessarily the hull. We had experimented with the weapon system change on other ships, and were happy with the results. The Osprey Navy Issue and Caracal were popular, but popular isn’t bad. Why we felt the need to take action is because, with the RLMLs as they were, these ships had very few tradeoffs; they got speed, engagement range, tank, and damage all at once. Fitting is about tradeoffs, and these didn’t have any. With the change to RLMLs, hulls had to select attributes to focus on instead of getting all at once.
We’re very happy with the results so far, not because the RLML platforms are less popular (they’re still quite popular), but there’s more diversity both in the meta and in how the ships are fit. Looking at all the changes holistically, the meta has more healthily shifted and added new challenges for you all to master.
I hope that addressed some of your concerns and misgivings about why these changes were made in the first place.
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Exactly what I said in the above post !!!
I don’t care how you put it, not all players are in null fleets.
Some just want to use them for PVE, and now you screwed them over in favour of the usual suspects…
You’re right, not all players in null fleets.
Many are in wormhole fleets.
Many are in High sec and Lowsec (where bubbles can’t be used, forcing us to use frigates for tackle).
And in all of these places, the previous Meta of Caracal/ONI’s/Orthus/Cerbs used to blap all tackle made it such that no one could be tackled at all, in high sec, low sec and often in wormholes.
So I don’t get what you’re saying, because Caracal/ONI’s/Orthus/Cerbs doctrines were a problem in High and Low sec, not null sec (because of bubbles). They were also a problem in wormholes since those tend to be small scale engagements where dictors don’t bring anything useful to the fight (because neither side intends to run away), whereas frigates are needed to scram/web the kitey ships seen in wormholes. However, because of the previous meta, frigates couldn’t be relied upon (so they weren’t used much either in wormholes), and instead people made meme-fit Mallers and such with 500MN MWDs to tackle in wormholes, is that what you call healthy?
Finally we’ve seen a resurgence of faction frigs and assault frigs in wormholes, because people can’t spam tier one caracals whilst expecting to the win the main fight.
So you contradicted yourself with this post, because it was never about null sec. If anything, this change came about from Wormholers and Low Sec PvP gangs and FW.
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These changes are actually more related to Faction Warfare than Null Fleets. PVE is not really affected by the range nerf.
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@Spacetramp_Drago just wants zero risk high reward PvP in low sec. You engage with Caracals and kill tackle. If you can’t win the fight you warp out scot free (or at least that what he wants to return to).
He’s aware that these changes weren’t aimed at Nullsec, yet he deceptively declares otherwise to garner favor with the Non-Nullsec community (by reffering to Null Sec players as the “usual suspects”). Nullsec didn’t face issues with Caracals because Remote Sensor-Booster-fitted Faction Fit Hictors were ready to intercept them between gates.
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My apologies, I have been away for a while, so my current knowledge of the meta in the game is lacking, and I may confuse a few things, that I haven’t looked up in a while.
Now I have to ask for clarification, why would any decent pilot use a screwdriver to get a nail into a piece of wood?
And would any of you use a screwdriver for that task?
Or to give context, if everything else hasn’t changed for most frigates, why would you fly an interceptor into a rapid-jesus launcher boat on purpose?
There is a frigate in the game that is almost immune to rapid-jesus missiles, that would do the task of asking the rapis-jesus launcher boat pilot to slow down a bit, so all your friends can talk to him at the same time, like a round-table.
Seems to be more of “a problem” of self-creation. Everyone needs to fly x and press either FONE or A & FONE, guns blazing.
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Because he is a carpenter with only screwdriver ? Or he’s been screwed so much in New Eden that he sees everything as screwholes ?
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Ok, tell us what you plan to tackle a nano RLM cruiser with? It better be fast enough to close the distance before he warps off.
Tell us daddy.
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They need to un-nerf caracals, so I can get back to annihilating frigates with impunity.
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You figured it out!
First, it is not required to tackle everything you wanna catch, especially when you want to catch a kiting ship.
Kiting is the art of being fast enough to mostly ignore everything that would be bad for your kiting ship.
But the greed for kill-mails is real and most kiting pilots won’t be able to resist something juicy, that looks just exactly right or “engagable”.
There is an entire line of pirate class ships, that are basically immune to rapid jesus launchers and even rockets from an over-eager garmur pilot.
Unfortunately for that kiting pilot, that juicy frigate just won’t explode like the other frigates usually do.
By the time the nano-kiter realizes, that something doesn’t look right, you should be able to spring the trap.
Wrong, in fact so wrong I’m sat shaking my head at your comment.
I don’t operate in LS, or NS now and I haven’t for years.
I don’t PVP so I have absolutely zero skin in that game.
But many years ago the Caracal was my first serious level 1/2 mission ship, well it was until they nerfed the reload time and made it a week wait for more missiles in the chutes.
There were more pilots like me that got shafted back then, and now more pilots are getting shafted because of the exact same reasons, other pilots crying because they can’t work out how to beat them when the answer is really simple.
Bring your own Caracal fleet and stand toe to toe, no side has an advantage then unless it’s one of awareness and tactical nous.
But they can’t do that, they’re not capable so they go crying to CCP/CSM to make it fairer (but just for them obviously).
So much for the alleged Sandbox eh?
This sandbox everyone gloats over is a myth, and this proves it beyond any doubt.
Unless your idea of a sandbox is being able to just kill with impunity and without the other side being able to defend or hit back.
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a Keres.
When the sole choice for a problem is to be that problem yourself, there is indeed a balance issue.
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Then you just said “There should exists ships which are always 100% safe to fly with the potential of killing other ships.”
Goodbye.
Also, still waiting to see your loadout for a frigate that could tackle Caracals pre nerf.
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LOL. So you just admitted that there is no (ISK efficient) counter to the Caracal other than bringing your own Caracal.
Hence the NERF.
And no, it’s YOUR IDEA OF IMPUNUITY. You want to waltz around in Caracals, Cerbs and Orth knowing you can’t ever be tackled (meaning you can just warp off if you don’t like what you see, in all situations). That’s the very definition of “being able to kill things without impunity.”
This is what Satanists do. They accuse you of the very thing they knowing are doing or desiring.
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