A good pilot (of which I am not) can somewhat mitigate the issue of guns one size larger tracking ships by keep transversal down with good maneuvering. Not saying everyone can do this, but I’ve met a few.
There is nothing a good pilot can do to mitigate how missiles apply to targets.
You are dodging the point.
I agree. I am happy with the reduction in ability for RLML ships to prevent counterplay with frigs and destroyers. I still go straight for the Crucifier when I hear they are in the area, though.
Incidentally, I also jump in a Crucifier with TDs when I hear of gunships in the area, but I am more likely to get in close under the guns.
I don’t understand what point I am missing.
People were discussing counters to RLMLs and I mentioned what I use. I went on to point out that there are no gunnery equivalents of RLMLs. Why? I don’t know. Back in the day I thought it was a valid suggestion to have something similar, but it went nowhere. Nobody wanted to bring it in, but also nobody wanted to get rid of their quick win RLML option either. Yet here we are, years later, and they get a little nerf and people are crying about it.
I still think that the balance is OK at the moment. Us small ship pilots have some counterplay now.
Adapt, and move on.
And if you answer my question, that will answer your question.
Try to not dodge the point, you may learn things …
A scramed webbed neuted frigate offers 100% application to a battleship gun fit, but the 200m explosion radius of a cruise missile means 25% application at max versus a painted 50m frigate (and 50m is big).
And 20% for a torpedo’s 250m.
So no, gun battleships had a choice to fit vs frigates (basically, web +neut+ scram). Not missiles BS.
Same for missile cruisers.
Rapids were an answer to that. Sure CCP could have reduce their explosion radius, but then bombers would have become very effective frigates killers, which would be a bad thing. So CCP made a new module, which has a bit less DPS, a long-ass reload, but way better application. They were the answer to the problem of launcher missiles being crap against smaller craft after the nerfs they received.
OK. I see your maths, but I have questions …
As far as I’m concerned, cruise missile battleships already have a weapon system that can kill frigates - drones. I am pretty sure they all have at least 25m3 of drone bay and bandwidth and they don’t need to have RLMLs as well. My opinion.
I maintain that the nerf to the Caracal has levelled the playing field a bit in small gang warfare and it seems quite balanced at the moment.
ps Theoretically, a scrammed webbed and neuted frig may offer 100% application but in reality that isn’t going to happen. I don’t know of a Large Artillery, Rail or Beam gun that would be capable of hitting a close orbitting frigate under those conditions. ACs, Blasters or Pulses … maybe.
They don’t. Drones will be defanged too fast to be of any use. Even worse, if BS want to have good defense they need to fit SB which can also hit their own drones.
you’re right, it’s with 1 grappler, 1web, 1scram, and one neut (neut and scram to shut down 1MN and 5MN)
(base DPS is 100 so you know how much % you apply, ignores resists)
Although in a funny way, RLML are still there…the difference is the range is lower. But the damage is about the same. So its kind of a net…why? Anyways?
If he really wanted to deal with the problem.
It would be more of a discussion on missile application mechanics. The launcher already has some pretty hefty pro-cons built in.
Maybe a discussion on how the light missiles themselves are applying too well might be within reason. Especially when skills are factored in. You can’t really tank light missiles. And if the hulls are missile velocity rigged…I can understand why someone might go a bit off the deep end on them.
We never got an honest discussion on which fits he was running into. Before the changes…there was possiblity of long range RLML Caracals. But, I would be rather intrigued if he was facing something that had Hydra Pods in. [Range wise.]
Now if he was running into one of the Minmatar Recons…the one with Webs + Launchers slots. I could understand some frustration there as well. Because that would mean all missiles will hit almost absolutely at fairly long ranges.
But, we never got a clarification on the situations that triggered off this Crusade.
I could probably be fine with some review of the missile mechanics pertaining to the missiles themselves. But, you know people will go crazy on thing, then forget about the same issue on another ship.
That is to be seen over the long term.
Consider how missiles interact with targets.
What is the most common prop in nullsec. MWD.
what does an MWD do…signature increase. [Generally around 500%]
But with some tweaks the missiles can apply even to small targets.
But that is what information we are missing from the discussion…what was the main “Aggressor” fit that he kept running into. And if he was constantly using a particular ship over and over again…he became predictable and a hard counter developed against his preferred ship.
There might be some angles to this. But I remember in some of my testing seeing light missiles having the potential of like 4m explosive radius.
But then again, I have faced people with Halo fits on SISI back in the day, and most of the missiles fired at me didn’t seem to be applying. [OPFOR might have had bad missile support skills]
But from my tinkering…the precision missile can get down to a 6.88 explosion radius. With a 500+ m/s explosion velocity.
This is K space.
Black Hole…Precision Lights are …sweats 6.7 explosion with 1000+m/s explosion velocity. [Although in that hole you need sig tanking for sure.]
Magnetar Hole…Precision Lights are 13.8m explosion sig with about 700+m/s explosion velocity.
All the others stay about 6.7 to 719m/s if you are going full out.
Although we have had special event boosters etc.
So maybe the question is the Precision light missile at base 25m is too small for explosion radius? T1Faction and Auto Targeters have a 40m Base. And T2 Fury are kind of big for what they are dealing with 69m base.
So you have if you are going a bit crazy…7m-10m-18m targetting application zones for light missiles. [Probably 20m on average]
So lets take a Retribution and give it some tweaks. So in Kspace and being generous with various signature adjustments you are looking at 53 signature size. Add in Wolf Rayets + Command ship booster effects…you might get it a little lower. I think within 30-25m range.
But this should be looked at.
Because light missiles can be smaller than the target ship…so a normal retribution with MWD on is like 103m signature. So between 122-103 before abyssal/drugs/boosters and other effects. The missiles fired against Retribution will be 10-20m depending on their skills and implants. 15m might be the regular.
So probably the missile should be looked at?
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