CCP - Need to look at neutral bumping alts

PvP Gameplay Center Warfare & Tactics
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Okay, so after a long time break from sov bull-■■■■, our sister indy corp was wardecced by some highsec war-dec nimnods. We go defend, things are fine - they didn’t even contest the hull timer at all.

We decide to do a bit more than defend, hoping to just get this stupid crap over with and go kick in their shield timer. Made fairly easy work of it, despite the enemy bringing in 3 neutral alts with overpropped Omens and bowling battleships sometimes 50km off of the rest of the fleet. During the structure bash it was an amusement as our logi was easily able to deal with any damage the structure managed to pull off, and we’d get a few of the fighters blapped. If they’d had a few more or with better piloting skills, they could have easily bumped the battleships and kept them out of range of logi while the structure mopped them up.

The really annoying bit was after the bash. They had a war-target in a crow that did what crows do with gates. Proper scouting and all that. But the Omen was able to bump battleships out of alignment, and managed to do it a few times with us missing it and leaving the guy behind, which would result in the solo battleship getting nuked before we could land on the next hole.

Really think that there needs to be a way to stop this kind of behavior. If one entity is going to war-dec another, third parties that cannot be retaliated against in any way should not be able to affect the outcome of a battle or war without repercussion.

Ideas that I’ve been spit-balling around in the brain:

  • Detect bumping, and if bumping over X times on the same grid, make them engageable without CONCORD interference. Not sure how to implement this without triggering for every dude undocking in Jita though…
  • Disable collisions for non-participants when in a war and in high-sec - I think this might be a better option. Then, if you’re war-decced, random idiots can’t affect you what-so-ever, without committing to the war and being able to be defended against. It would still allow for bumping if the bowlers are part of the war, but then would allow the ‘bowling pins’ to slap them. Since this stupid crap doesn’t apply in Low/Null, they can bump all they want – since we can melt their faces.

Either way, think its absolutely daft that the cops can’t figure it out. If someone was body-checking you repeatedly, they’d give you the right to cold cock the idiot.

Little bit of clarification below: CCP - Need to look at neutral bumping alts - #98 by Lillith_Sakata

Further clarification:
I never said bumping in of itself is not valid. The game has had the mechanic for as long as I recall. I use bumping myself every chance I get – bump heavy ships out of alignment so we can fight. Bump them off wormholes to force a fight or prevent escape.

The explicitly targeted thing I dislike and call out is out of corp, and likely alpha alts, being used to bump parties in an actual war. I’d have absolutely 0-shits-given if there was any risk to the bumper that didn’t involve the goal of it to occur regardless of intervention due to abuse of CONCORD mechanics in this case.

The point of bumping in this case is to get the allied in-war friends to delete a ship of the other side. If the other guy shoots the OoC bumper, they get CONCORDed. If they don’t shoot, they get blapped by the war targets. This is a completely one-sided mechanic, with no justifiable defence. Especially when the only real ‘defence’ would have been to either - log out DPS/logi to swap for a gank-ship, or violate ToS to log in/create an alpha toon to fly a gank-ship. Neither of which anyone in their right mind was going to do.

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Trouble is I think bumping is essential for different strategies, such as a Curse (recon ship) ganking by bumping into prey and causing a decloak and alignment delays and thus precious seconds to lock and scram the prey. I do not think this change can happen, but it sounds cheap, what the nuetral is doing.

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On one hand, bumping is one of the stupidest “this bug is actually a feature” mechanics there ever were in this game. Its WAY out there in terms of physical reality. On the other hand, fixing it seems to be something of a nightmare.

Threads exist for ideas to fix the bumping problem, but as this is addressing the specific issue of neutral ships tinkering with war declarations and fleet warps and getting ships destroyed without consequence, its a toss up if it will be merged.

Some might say that you should always prep a ship or two to suicide gank those bumpers, as it seems you are going to lose a ship or two anyway. Other inter-rim solutions may also be presented, perhaps using the higgs anchor or something.

But I think one possible key to this would be through detection of momentum and speed, and any ship to ship collision over both a certain speed AND momentum triggers a yellow flashy on the ship or ships over both that speed and momentum.

I say both because frigates travel quite fast, but don’t have the momentum to bump effectively. It would not be fair if they went flashy for the many accidental bumps they do despite having low momentum. On the other hand a big ship can have high momentum at low speed but also cannot bump effectively.

In before the thread closure.

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Please read the ENTIRE post, I’m not saying “get rid of bumping” I’m saying “if someone is repeatedly bumping you, you should be able to shoot them”

Or, if they’re at war, and you’re not in it, in highsec you can’t bump.
In low/null, no holds barred.

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I’m not sure about all the other bits about bumping but I do think that if someone is shooting at you or ally’s structures, then they take a bunch of out of corp alts and go bumping you, you should be able to whack em, or they shouldn’t be able to bump. So, if we’re at war, you can bump me all you want, so long as I get to blap your face off. But if I get my out of corp alt to counter bump your DPS or something, it’ll just pass right through.
I can see how that coul dbe abused, but it’d be an expensive abuse keeping ‘fake’ wars going all the time.

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Carebears will whine about anything.

Either shoot or don’t shoot, but whinging because your opponent in the war is just better at the game is about as weak as it gets.

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The anti-whingers whinge and whine more than anyone and never miss an opportunity to shout “carebear” in ways that show they don’t even know what it means.

Unconstructive posts that make you wonder if they even read the thread, or if they did, could grasp its points for even reading it 5 times, about as intellectually weak as it gets.

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I have to say I kind of agree with this - the idea of war-decs being able to be bypassed by using out of corp alts just seems sooo … cheap

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Bring neutral ganking alts, problem solved.

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It’s the universe though.

Eve is a sandbox and it’s not like there aren’t rules. There are a coherent (if a little unrealistic) set of spaceship physics, and a defined set of aggression rules. There is a clear line - you activate an aggressive module or weapon on someone illegally, the police are dispatched and your ship explodes in a matter of seconds.

Bumping is the mildest of interventions, basically harmless other than slightly interfering with your alignment. There is even a immersion-breaking cap CCP added that disables collisions and sends you off after 3 minutes. Intentional or random, so such “reality” of contact with other ships is intended.

Removing that universe aspect of the game for the niche purpose asked for by the OP is silly - there are simple ways to keep your ships warping together. Adding a CONCORD response to bumping is also a non-starter, and would result in a hilarious amount of people accidently getting CONCORDed in busy places after a few incidental bumps.

I am afraid the OP is just going to HTFU and stop asking for the game to be changed because they were outplayed. Learn the existing rules and figure out a method to avoid having your fleet split or some other defensive strategy. Or even ask here for advice to counter this and you will get much more helpful responses rather than whining about how the game is broken because someone used the existing rule set to beat you.

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That is most likely why it was dismissed in the OP. Did you read it?

Anyway, go shoot some loot that’s not yours and there you will find your ridiculous Concord response.

Changes in any way that the game is broken is not silly.

I feel you are playing really fast and loose with the word “coherent”. They may be logically ordered by computer logic but they most certainly are not to human logic. You may as well say the mining belt order of V, IX, I is coherent when it should be IX,V, I by human logic. CCP does what it can with the tools available to streamline the game. Making it humanly coherent ranges from an afterthought to a shoulder shrug.

The OP clearly said she was not outplayed. Her corp won. She was pointing out that some ships were lost due to a ridiculous mechanic. And she can do that and alter her in game behavior at the same time. Its not a binary choice that she must do one or the other.

And could you not take every post pointing to a crappy mechanic as a complaint? Its a cheap shot and a tired accusation. EVE isn’t perfect okay? People can adjust and cite flaws at the same time.

Or are you just having a bad week or a bad life and wanted to lash out at someone?

Or maybe you could give advice instead of say HTFU and insist there are good, simple, reliable counters even without providing a single example?

In short, you don’t have to contribute. The other option is to stay silent.

Have a nice day and I hope whatever is eating you goes away.

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Such a constructive post. Pot/Kettle and all that.

HTFU and adapt.

It’s possible to get a fleet into a position on Upwell structures that makes them near impossible to bump, the disadvantage being that fighters can be deployed and recalled instantly and so are harder to kill, but advantages and disadvantages to different approaches.

If the OP’s fleet just warps to 0 or in range and then complains that the defenders are defending, they should adapt and learn to play better than the other group. Complaining because he’s just not as good at the game is typical carebear thinking.

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The hell do you want? Oh, for me to just let you crap where you please. Well, I am not a moderator. That’s their job.

The helll thread are you even responding to? Those are neutrals and they are directly meddling with no direct legal repercussion possible. There are many reasons why that is logically preposterous, and that’s why no soldier would be successfully prosecuted for capping someone doing that IRL.

That’s great. The OP may well do that. Meanwhile, the mechanics of this are still bullship.

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COLLISION MECHANICS 2021 LETS GOOOOOOO

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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SoreEnormousApe-size_restricted.gif(image larger than 4096KB)

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They are alts of defenders and if the OP doesn’t want to be bumped, then put the fleet where they can’t be bumped.

The OP is a nullsec player who thought the big boys would come to town and show the highsec scrubs what’s what; and instead got outplayed.

So next stop - whine in the forum.

LOL. Gank the bump ships with alts. They can be dealt with, even if the OP’s fleet wasn’t smart enough to make bumping difficult.

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Why do you have to perpetually make that accusation? Inability not to suggests psychological issues.

I am not saying there are not counters…there are. But they are crappy, back door counters taking advantage of RL reality rather than in-game. As such, people who want immersion in the game are not going to like them.

To constantly characterize that as “whining” is offensive, insulting and its harassment. I don’t know what sort of favors you are providing to the powers that be, but they must be significant.

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Read the OP. It’s self evident.

What? If you do anything in RL rather than the game, you should be banned. Every counter is an in game action; and that’s where it should stay.

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Creating and logging onto ganking accounts is an IRL action. People don’t want to do that as per your suggestion. They don’t want to basically hire mercenaries to perform in-game illegal actions, particularly if they are grunt level players who want still dream of honorable fights.

You suggested multi-boxing or for those incapable, to instead log off their main and log onto an account they don’t actually even want to use. They all take away from immersion. They also tax concentration on the actual objective much more than just having what should be straight forward options for the character being used.

We all know that if CCP had the tools, then using neutral ALTs to affect they outcome of a player’s war would b considered an exploit. They just don’t have tools that good…yet.

Your subjective idea evident in every other thread. Its not just this one. Could you just save it for people threating to quit or unsub at least? It will save your wrist every time a favor is called in.

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Creating any account is then, so if the argument is that this requires IRL action, that’s just playing the game.

If the OP, who thought he would give highsec the nullsec leet treatment, doesn’t want to hire mercs, then that’s also just a decision of the OP. It’s a limit he places on himself, for something that is a personally reasonable approach.

I’m not suggesting log off at all. That’s idiotic to suggest. The game is an MMO, multi-player doesn’t have to mean multiple accounts of one player.

So no scouting, no setting up of safes, no infiltration, no neutral alts to haul ships about, etc.?

Or just, no use of game mechanics that you personally find distasteful, even though CCP has specifically declared them ok?

Opinions are all subjective. That’s true of everyone. Go figure.