What can’t you do at the beginning? You can mine, you can PVP, you can run missions, you can explore, you can even do industry. You can do EVERYTHING. Maybe not efficiently, maybe not to the best effect and possibilities, but you can do everything EVE offers from a few minutes to a few hours into playing EVE. The game provides you with free ships, free modules even in some instances, the tutorial and career agents tell you want you can do in EVE and guide you through the basic processes of these activities. Please point to a reasonable thing that you cannot do as a new player (flying capitals is not a reasonable thing).
Interesting that you claim to be new and already know my “normal” posting habits.
I don’t have a problem with dissenting voices, I have a problem with people who have ulterior motives which in his case seems to be “I hate the game, lets bash it” in 99% of his posts. Why stick around on a forum of a game you hate and possibly don’t even play?
It’s not what I want to hear, it what I have experienced.
Those are not opinions, it’s retelling what CCP claims and how wrong their claims are. Opinions are things like statements from Rattati that follow ulterior motives and misrepresent what is going on.
And your experience is very limited and does not even remotely grasp the full picture. As said above, your claim about feeling dumb and not being able to do anything is wrong and misrepresentative of how EVE and games in general work.
It may or may not be correct that newbs could benefit from a bit more guidance towards important NPE aspects like the career agents, and the concept of career agents could be expanded upon with more activities, but it is simply wrong to claim that you are useless, that you cannot do anything, and that this is a problem unique to EVE.
Okay, let’s not call it ‘opinions’ then, but ‘Zhalyds subjective view’. You are giving us a very coloured interpretation of what CCP said to the point that I roll my eyes at nearly every point.
It’s useful to point out to others when you think something smells, but when according to you everything always smells, maybe the source of the smell is you.
Which is my point. I don’t, those people are a waste of time and energy. Having a normal discussion, like we’re having now, even when we disagree is fine and as it should be. But there’s no point in having a discussion with an extremist (which is what he essentially is).
You are free to post an actual summary of the stream. As said multiple times, I only pointed out pain points that I noticed in this talk.
Hey, I am trying to be positive. What am I supposed to do, though, if CCP keeps screwing up and keeps blaming us for their failures and keeps posting empty phrases instead of what they actually want to do. I mean, Rattati said he misses going to the forums and posting ideas and having a debate, and then he continues to not say anything of substance again in this stream and only hints vaguely at things to come. How are we supposed to have a discussion with CCP if they do not follow through with their words?
But you arent actually tackling his points, or even saying they are inaccurate on factual grounds.
Anyway, I feel a customer’s attitude to a company should be akin to what a journalist’s attitude to a politician should be; ignore the hype and spin, and question the motivation and maneuvering.
I appreciate that you posted the link and gave a summary of the points you find important, but with coloured glasses this strong I see very little value in reading your explanations. And I think that’s a wasted opportunity.
Maybe I’ll watch the stream later and see for myself what it is about.
You would have benefited from doing that before you started posting about me being opinionated and negative.
I will not deny that I am passionate about EVE to an unhealthy degree. In contrast to you, who claims to have only joined this year, I have been around since 2011. Since then I have seen how CCP operates, I have seen how they screw up despite better knowledge, I have seen how they repeatedly say no one could have foreseen a thing (Rattati does that in this stream on several occasions, too) while players told CCP exactly what would happen if they do that thing. I have given tons of feedback (both in constructive and sometimes more controversial forms) to make EVE a better place. Other people have done that, too. And what does CCP do? They work down a list of memes from the past decade and when it turns out that memes are not a good foundation for sound development, they go shocked face on us.
To Rattati’s credit, and I pointed that out as well, he actually admitted that the small guys got hit much harder by the market changes than big traders. This is a rare and appreciated instance of a clear admission of guilt. EVE, the players and CCP could benefit from more of these guilty pleas because there are tons of things where that would be warranted.
I already asked about Dr. Eylo and what his opinion would be. Maybe he’s still involved in some way, we don’t know. Yes, there probably are some very knowledgeable economists working at ccp. And they probably advise people like Rattati. Advise, mind you, not say do this. Advice is not binding, as most of us know. I’m just curious, is all …
Some of the interviewee’s thoughts are clearly colored by the company’s current mantra of NPE and retention. It also shows that he has no real experience in being an eve player, or a beginning Eve player at that. Suggestions that rookies should be able to fly bigger ships shows that “don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose” is clearly not acute knowledge with this speaker, at least not from an experience. Better participation in industry by new players ? Sure, by going out there, and make balls of fire or become one. That is the best participation there is, and also has a good effect on the economy. In fact, the whole game is built around that concept.
Frustrating not to be able to get into a particular ship ? There’s a reason that one needs to go through the steps, namely at the end of it all, that ship is going to explode. Going through the necessary steps, including lengthy skill training, is the way to learn to decide which risks to take, etc. Unless, of course, you do your best to promote hisec krabbing even more than they already did, with more economic disasters on the way.
So in essence, this undertone of Eve was designed wrongly from the start, not very credible, savvy ? Eve will not be saved by catering to the instant gratification crowd, and that is what much of this word spaghetti sounds like.
That differs per person. We’re not all the same, we don’t all have the same drives or goals. Some people like crowds, others do not. Some people want to do things head first, others want to figure stuff out before doing them.
Not saying you’re wrong, just saying that it’s not a “one size fits all” kind of deal.
You’re right, and there is choice. I pointed out that there are different ways of “getting involved in industry sooner”. When a dev says it, especially this person, I am convinced he talks about industrial activities, using skills from Industry and reprocessing, perhaps even Science. That would affect the economy in a negative way. It needs more destruction, not more production - let alone earlier production, and certainly not by alphas. Krabbing is what brought the economy down. If pvp is not anyone’s thing anymore, the game stops.
In essence, this is what I am saying: as long as the team responsible for fixing the economy has no real vision and plan to create more destruction, a plan including new players, the longer it will take the game to recover, if at all …
This is something that Rattati and CCP at large seem to have forgotten. This is the basic principle of how all games work. You work through the levels and trainings to gain access to better items, better activities, better gear, better stats. It is ridiculous to claim that this is an issue in EVE. It is ridiculous to claim that this should change just because some new people want to fly a BS or carrier from day one. These people are so ridiculous even that they forget that they can do exactly that already thanks to skill injectors. People who claim that there is not much to do in your first hours or days of EVE simply do not see all the things because they don’t want to see them or can’t see them because they are not asking or looking closely enough.
@Xanthellus might benefit from looking at the following picture and maybe CCP should show it to newbies in the process of the tutorial or the career agents, maybe in a similar menu like the Ship Tree. That way new people would actually see what they can do in EVE, how the CA introduce them to a plethora of things to do and they would noticed what they can do already from the start:
One more time CCP employee proof to everyonne they are bad at game design.
“No big changement in null sec” . Ok so let me explain it very fast if you read it CCP.
Actually if you farm 1 years, you will make the money people was making in 3 month.
You don’t get the problem ? The new player yes. Increase retention by explaining to nex player they will must grind more than old player for a less better result.
You have totally kill risk/reward/effort who was the basis of the game, and you have repeat it near everywhere.
So i will give to you in esclusivity CCP what to do to have more destruction … trust me it’s amazing … Revert all change done to economy. ALL , back to pre blackout level (and before first anom change). Bring back cyno etc.
When you have do it we could start to speack on how reform the game. But actually you are killing the game more to not admit you have miserably fail.
You know what ? The old approach of “here’s a ship, now f u” has led to one of the most successful and famous games out there. It has also led to a knowledgeable player base. Admittedly, the base is small and perhaps elitist. The hesitation to continue along that path, and instead cater to people who have expectations created by other games is worrying. I am convinced that there are ways to attract and hold new players of the old signature. For instance, blaming the complexity of the UI (interview) is not going to help… Dumbing the UI down is a nono, the game and its players need a complex UI simply to do all their ‘stuff’ in the sandbox. Documenting and explaining the UI will help. It’s about increasing accessability. And that is clearly where ccp has always fallen short of any mark after they killed off their own Evelopedia - which meant they basically gave up on efforts of documenting their own product or taking responsibility for it. If they ever intend to alter the game away from its roots they will end up with a half-baked monstrosity that is truly broken in many ways.
You can almost feel the bleeding hearts when you read statements like “With over 1.3 million distinct human beings (not counting alts!) trying EVE Online for the first time in 2020, helping new players find their footing in New Eden remains one of the most important projects for the game.” What they forget to detail here is that the vast majority of those distinct human beings consists of players who change games on a whim, with all games they visit seeing similar retention rates.
Yes, from my personal pov this is how I feel about it and stated in the “what do players want” thread:
I’m fine with EVE being complex, it’s part of the reason I kept playing, but at the same time there’s a difference between “our game is so complex it’s going to take you time to do well” and “lol our tutorial is so crap people uninstall in droves, that’s how we like to see it”.
Totally with you there. The tutorial, as it exists, tries to serve two purposes (in my opinion, at least). 1) teach elementary use of the UI and 2) show very basic ways of making isk and shooting stuff in space.
For 1) it falls short, it didn’t keep pace with the UI’s growing complexity and you can’t go back and look up what you forgot. What’s more, it’s not evident where to look for that info.
For 2) calling it career agents creates all sorts of false expectations. They should be called tutorial agents and be in a fixed series, taking UI interaction through its steps in correct order (the career agents don’t teach about UI interaction at all, leaving new players to try to figure it out). And then of course, it is in dire need of a “fix the stupid” pass on career mission descriptions. And perhaps it should end with a message that, in order to play EvE, players will need to look for information sources given the complexity of the game - with a few pointers.
It’s not so much the complexity that drives people away, I think, but more a matter of them not knowing where to even begin looking for documentation.
