If I could give you ten likes for that post, I would. Your TLDR; is spot on. But ONLY for the wording of the TLDR;
How you define progress may not be how others define progress. Eve is not a game with any objectives except the ones you set for yourself.
And most players (and devs) define progress incorrectly.
Trying to put it into a tutorial will be disastrous.
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I didnāt say to put it into a tutorial.
I said we need to help people understand for different paths, what progress in the path looks like. Itās intuitive for vets of that path but not for others.
But I appreciate you arguing against something of your own creation. Easier that way : )
That seemed to be what you were getting at.
And the same thing applies to āpathā. You are still telling people what progression is when itās entirely subjective and ultimately meaningless beyond the individual.
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The history of gaming suggests you are wrong. It may be meaningless to you. And itās that thought that is causing CCP to totally botch the NPE.
Enjoy the day/evening.
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A very mature and faithful stance to take. One most of us have not taken. Admirable.
Games that have the same path that every one has to follow, then yea, progression is the same etc.
in EVE, you cannot compare it to other gamesā¦ EVE is a dragonfruit in a sea of apples and oranges.
progression, paths, careers etc, in EVE are not linear and no two people will match up with the same, unless they follow the same route, even then, bumps in the road can change the path for one of them.
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More like a durian.
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EVE does not follow the āhistory of gamingā and thatās why you are making a mistake.
In the history of gaming you picked a āclassā and that class had linear or semi-linear āprogressionā like levels.
EVE does not have classes. It does not have levels. It does not even have āpathsā. This is what i mean when most players donāt define progression correctly.
You want to be told what to do and and be given validation when reaching certain milestones. But EVE cannot work that way because one persons mile stones are different from another. So who do you validate and when? You canāt because itās a shitty system that validates one persons milestones and not another.
Take exploration. You think exploration is a āpathā. Itās not really. Itās better defined as an activity. Why?
Because the fact that i participate in exploration does not mean i define myself by that profession. It is not my path nor my class.
The other thing is that the way EVE works is so non-linear that i can jump into the deep end of exploration (whatever you think that may be) without first āprogressingā through the beginning. I donāt have to first practice exploration in hi-sec before i move onto other areas of space. There is no āpathā to follow. And if you try to make one it WILL be meaningless to most of us.
Just to demonstrate to you how bad the idea of paths and progression is letās look at missions. Missions DO have a progression system and they DO have levels as a way of validating your milestones. And higher levels can only be unlocked by first completing so many amounts of lower missions. And when new players choose the āpathā of āleveling up their ravenā, they are more likely to quit.
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I used to think the same way, now Iām not so sure with ccpās latest decisions.
Itās not the game that is changing to be similar to other games, its the devsā¦ thereās a differenceā¦ While EVE overall is still not like other games, CCP is making changes that ā¦ makes one wonder if the hamsters above the neck are still alive.
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Technically true and false at the same time. You can technically go to null sec or W-space for exploration right away because no gates will prevent you from doing that, but without first training some skills and learning at least the basics of the exploration and hacking system sin high sec, ie. leveling up, you will not be able to scan or hack most cans in null sec or w-space. So, while technically the exploration content in those areas is not hidden behind a typical hard wall like āyou need to reach level Y to do Xā, itās hidden behind a soft wall of āYou could do it but you wonāt be successful. Do it in space A first because itās easier there before you go to B for the harder, more rewarding sites.ā
Maybe CCP should put that bit in the tutorial. While you are doing your tutorial missions, Aura pops up and asks you in a nonchalant tone if she could give you some eve world advice for your future or tell you a short story about other capsuleers she educated in the past. You can decide if you want to hear her stories or not. If you do, she starts talking about how one guy left her in the cold, wanted to do their own thing, went into dangerous space, failed a few times in what they were trying to do and came back to receive the necessary introduction after all and then really took off more successfully. Or another person that finished living through her advice, then set out to experience the universe for themselves, started doing X, found some likeminded people or a corp doing that, joined and helped them grow out of high sec space into a low sec alliance and ultimately managed to dominate a market segment for a while. Stories like that.
People could watch/listen to them while they are in station or autopilot to Jita (does the tutorial still suggest to turn on AP to get to places? Maybe that could be a story too about how to not do that everywhere without checking) or wait for skills to finish. People could get a better sense for whatās going on, how information and learning make a difference, how you can progress from one area to another, from one activity to another, from one aspect of the game to another.
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You donāt, each area is different with different rules.
Habits learnt in one space wonāt help you the same way in another.
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Not all of them but you can build on previous experiences. The rules for each area are not that different as you think. While you do not technically have to watch your back in high sec when you go around and explore, you would still do well to know certain areas where people are trying to gank you if they notice that you carry a big booty in your cargo.
The same principle of ālearning about the area you go intoā works in low and null sec. On top of learning about areas where impassible gatecamps take place very often, you learn another lesson after your first or second lost exploration frigate (this would be an experience that Aura already told you about in one of the story videos that you watched during the tutorial in addition to the career agent making you lose your ship. That way you know that it will happen and that it is perfectly normal) in an exploration site: Watch local, dscan often and check people in local for their activity on killboards.
That could be a nice story video from Aura, too, after you lost your first exploration frigate in an exploration site and landed back in your schoolstation after you got podded. If EVE does not have progression in some areas that are similar to other games, we at least have experiences from the past that should be accessible to new players while they are being introduced to the game. Build on the āI was thereā trailer or the āThis is (really) EVEā trailer.
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Probably that what CCP is attempting to do is really, really, really foolish. People have tried this IRL and it is typically a complete failure. Further, it may be bad for the game overall. This is a PvP game with a major focus on stuff going boom. Who is going to be more willing to risk stuff? The guy with a wallet with 10 billion in ISK or the guy with a wallet with 10 million in ISK and the price of stuff going up?
And even if CCP does manage to reduce to some extent the wealth of the rich players, chances are it will be even worse for the not so rich players. A 10% reduction across the board is quite regressive. A guy with 150 billion sees his wealth drop to 135 billion. Mehā¦heāll be fine. The guy with 300 million sees his wealth drop to 270 million. Tends to hurt alot more.
And ironically to the extent that new players are also ISK poor players it may end up hurting retention.
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That is quite low. How can even people function like this?
Maybe if corporation provides ships and srp only.
You should dig up the average isk wealth graph, itās a few years old now but the average EVE player has way less isk than you think, it is concentrated massively in the hands of a few.
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Because those few people kept playing while most people that have ānothingā most likely stopped playing many years ago. Was this graph adjusted to exclude these chars? Sure, they still technically exist but do they matter if you compare active ISK, which is what this graph was about.
Why? Did you have to pass a test when you started playing?
While I do not care for the idea gauging players against an absolute standard, I do get where this person is coming from.
I have been finding it very difficult of late to enjoy the MMO I do play, and itās not because thereās anything wrong with the game, per se, but because of the way everyone wants to play it.
Maybe Iāve been spoiled having played Eve for so long, but I just play games to play and donāt really care too much what the in game rewards are for any particular thing. As such, I like doing low level things, or high level things, or whatever else. My basic limitations are just that I donāt do PvP, duties that are stupid easy (Because players disable the level caps), or grinding of activities for rewards once it is no longer fun.
The problem Iām having is finding people who want to do anything but grind or cheat their way through content. Systems have been introduced over time that streamline progression to the point people donāt really need help with anything, and even if they do help can be acquired from random matching systems.
The end is no different from the beginning in Eve, though. We end up with a high level player who doesnāt know how to do his or her job properly but has some shiny equipment. Iām not any good at video games, but I know you donāt need super shiny gear to get the job done. I can do it, and Iām far too lazy to put in work to get shinies. I donāt want to work when I play games. I donāt want to āprogressā unless I do so in play. I progress as far as I feel like.
Progression is hammered into players these days and they expect it like they expect a doorknob to rotate to open the door. People wonāt even check to see if the door is a sliding door if thereās a doorknob on it, and in a similar vein, some people wonāt give Eve a chance if they donāt see the progression they expect. I donāt think Eve should cater to these people specifically, but it could do a better job of presenting the options for career paths, giving them an NPC nudge to try them, and some idea of what taking their activities to the next level is.
Thousands of years ago when I was riding those dinos to work, I didnāt feel Eve was all that different from other games. I grew up with games where winning was impossible unless you considered beating your personal high score a win. MMOs had strange systems like having to fiddle around with runes randomly to find out what combinations cast useful spells. There was no Google to feed me the answer to all those questions I had to figure out for myself. The Eve of yoreās new players entered the battlefield with an open mind to figure out the game like they always had. In this new dawn of easy answers and search engines telling people things they believe without questioning the source, it is easy for me to imagine that Eve will have to go to some extra effort to indoctrinate new players used to games where everything is spelled out for them letter by letter so that they know this is more of a creative writing class.
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