Not interested in going up against actual pvpers…
It’s not too late to get in on the action.
This is eve. If you undock, you are a pvper whether you like it or not.
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Indeed but seems to me you are scared of fighting anyone that fights back.
Any ship can fight back. It’s up to the player to equip their ship with weapons and drones.
If you fail to do so, it is your fault. Not the fault of your opponent.
And yes, people pvp in rookie ships, in ventures, you can even use freighters as bait. Nothing is useless in pvp if you plan well and act smartly.
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I think you will find that a freighter or JF cannot fit weapons or drones.
I guess that was to cover your first statement, however any bait without the ability to hold tackle is not very effective bait. I have seen freighters used to get people to drop a couple of times in null, but it makes no sense in hisec as you cannot clear tackle, i.e. the bumper, so it would be the height of stupidity and not smart at all…
I covered this in the next section of my post.
You dont need to clear tackle. You just need the Freighter to survive long enough for concord to kill off all the gankers.
Heres a scenario. You are in a freighter, fleeting up with 5 armor logi that are sitting 0.5 AU away, aligned towards your gate. You are being bumped. Gankers come in with 20-30 stealth bombers. You warp your fleet of 5 augurors or oneiroses or whatever ships 50km away, and rep. The 20-30 stealth bombers die to concord. Youve just inflicted 1.2-1.8 billion isk worth of damage to the gankers.
Heres another scenario. You are in a freighter, being bumped by a machariel. You are in fleet with 30,40 catalyst pilots, 0.5 au away and aligning towards your gate. You calculate how long it takes for him to approach you, and tell the fleet to warp so that your fleet lands just as he bumps you. You gank his machariel.
Or, what about just having the 20-30 catalysts hang around your freighter? And when he comes in to bump, the catalysts pounce. If the objective is for your freighter to survive, then all of the above scenarios can achieve this. If the objective is for your opponent to lose a ton of isk, and therefore win the isk-war, then the above scenarios can also acheive this.
These are all viable strategies. But no one wants to do them because it takes too much effort/time/people. What people who lose freighters, want to do, is to fly a freighter semi-afk with maybe 1 other alt doing webbing and expect to be able to combat 20-30 players.
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Sorry but all of the baits that I have seen in nullsec using freighters ended up with clearing tackle.
I have been in two guardians with other logi and have not been enough to save a freighter against bombers.
Who are the 30 to 40 Catalysts, who pays for their ships, how do they deal with the kill rights and the lack of security status, do these 30 to 40 Catalyst characters actually exist, do you know that people tried to get people to do this and at most ended up with four or five people willing to do this, 30 to 40, try developing that.
Well damn right, that is the issue, just as much as the naff bumping mechanics, but perhaps you are super man and can organise it.
But you are wrong, they are not combatting 20-30 players they are most of the time one player who is multi-boxing. And this is the issue that you have failed to understand and that the game enables one player to multi-box to take down a freighter you have to always see it as one player against another player.
20-30 players ganking, if only it was so…
I expect the normal bullshite coming back at me, but seriously you have to do a lot more thinking on this.
I agree with some of your sentiments, but let’s look at this through another point of view and possibly in a separate reality. The biggest hurdle around both ganking and anti-ganking is time and resources. It’s obvious that ganking will almost always result in higher payouts than someone anti-ganking…
Imagine that someone like Globby or Australian Excellence determined to become anti-gankers. These players are just 2 examples of a number of players that have advantages through experience, in-depth knowledge of mechanics, and resources to get the job done with regular consistency.
So how would they do it?
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They could easily steal the gank loot, and give most of it back to the target. This way the activity is profitable and he’s still helping out.
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It takes a handful of Gnosis in a 0.5 to gank a typical Bump Machariel or a handful of Stealth Bombers in something like a 1.0 system (refer to PL during the last Burn Jita forcing goons to stop using Machariels).
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They could constantly gank their scouts / scanners
So the truth is that there’s quite a bit that a single player and small group of players can achieve.
So why is something like this considered so difficult or unreasonable for the typical anti-ganker?
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All it takes is a single person popping scouts to be annoying and effective.
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All it takes is a single person warping 2 characters to the wreck to loot into a DST
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All it takes is a handful of players to kill Bump Machs
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All it takes is some organization and creativity. I’ve seen you say it here and in the Wardec Project Discord that anti-ganking lacks organization. I’ve also read it from dozens others in the gank-intel channel… If literally all it comes down to is the difference in level of dedication, then what really is there to complain about?
Edit: Something to think about… If the majority of freighter ganking is the result of a few dedicated individuals that multibox and out in the effort to gank, don’t you think that their counters ought to require the same? What about the playing field is unfair? What about the playing field is unfun when anti-gankers can’t be bothered to actually try?
In the golden age of alpha accounts and SP farms for FREE omega accounts, you’re telling me that this is too difficult or unfair and that somehow the time, energy, and resources that these individuals have put into building this niche activity is somehow out of balance?
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Jesus, there’s some special saltflakes in here.
I wonder how some of them would’ve reacted to Jihad Swarm.
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I thought we were talking about Hisec.
You yourself stated that were talking about hisec. Why are you pivoting back to nullsec? Which one do you want to discuss? They are both different circumstances and contexts. Nullsec and Hisec are different. So which is it?
Thats not enough information.
Were you already in fleet and were you trying to bait the gankers?
How many gankers were on the killmail? Please present the killmail.
How many were “Other logi”?
Was it an armor freighter or shield freighter? What modules in the lowslots did it have?
You havent provided any context. You might as well have said “I brought in 10000 logi and i couldnt save a freighter… because we arrived after it got destroyed”.
So, whats the context?
Ill answer the next part, one by one. Lets see if you can keep up.
Anyone. Everyone. Friends. Alts. Corpmates. We once formed up to try and kill Globby because he was bumping an imperium freighter alt.
There is no restriction. It can be you, your alts, or friends/corpmates. I dont see how or why this matters, its not like the Gankers are having a hard time forming up a fleet.
We did, but again, anyone and everyone. If this is an actual counter-op, then the freighter pilot can.
Again, not like the gankers are having a hard time funding their own ganks, even on empty freighters, using covert ops bombers, which cost 5-6 times more than catalysts.
Its one gank, theyre not going to dip to -10.0 after a single gank. But again, how do gankers deal with it? Through either not caring, because its not like youre barred from entering hisec ever again, or buy tags.
Ah, and now we get to the crux of the argument.
Yeah, it sucks when you have crappy friends who dont want to help. Whats the solution?
Get better friends. Make better friends. Make more friends.
Youre basically complaining that your friends suck, and (almost) none of them are willing to take a standings hit and a months inconvenience of a kill right to save your ship. Well, congratulations for having bad friends. If you are bad at making new friends, make alts.
I find it humorous that gankers never seem to have this problem. Someone like Kushion makes 20 alts just to gank, and youre crying about only 4 people showing up.
Well, no, Miniluv consistently does not gank with multiple alts, its generally individual players, and i have a miniluv alt, a single alt, that i use.
But for the sake of argument, lets ignore that.
Can I ask, whats the reason why you cannot multibox? Is there anything wrong with multiboxing? And if not, then why does it matter if someone multiboxes?
I did. Ive been discussing this with people like you for a long time. You guys always run away, cause you cant come back with anything substantive.
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But thats the problem, isnt it.
Anti-gankers dont want to spend Plex or Money on alt accounts just to prevent ganks.
Anti-gankers dont want to spend ISK and time to prevent ganks.
Anti-gankers dont want to spend time sitting in front of their computer waiting for a gank to occur.
Anti-gankers dont want to do anything. They dont want to put the effort. The time. The money.
Gankers on the other hand?
Gankers will spend billions of isk on alt accounts. Hundreds of dollars on alt accounts. Just to gank.
Gankers will spend hours bumping freighters. Hours.
Gankers will spend many billions of ISK on ganking ships, even if the gank fails.
Its really, incredibly stupid to compare these two people. They are polar opposites.
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Passively train your anti-gank alt to 5m SP as an alpha, farm SP to keep it omega.
I disagree as you can regularly find the same people that seem to just sit in anti-ganking chat while following gankers around Highsec. They often show up in griffins and such to whore on CONCORD killmails.
I disagree here as well. They are already spending time doing this. They follow gankers around highsec, they report their positions to intel channel, and they whore on kills. Some even just sit… waiting in systems where gankers are logged off so they can quickly report them in intel.
I agree with this. They would rather complain and have CCP “balance” this.
Yes this is true.
Yes this is true.
Yes this is true, although you’re at the mercy of the Loot Fairy or they are being funded by a group / individual. The activity has to be sustained in some way… I’ve never heard of a ganker that was credit card warrior’ing his ganking…
I can see merit in this in that the current average anti-ganker is leagues behind gankers in many different ways. I listed methods in which anti-ganking could be successful and profitable earlier. It just takes some effort and imagination. They already spend all day failing at anti-ganking. Why not actually do it well?
Wouldve worked, except that Gankers cant be in pods that have even decent implants, because they die, a lot, even being podded.
Meaning, SP farming isnt even nearly profitable. It may cover some isk, but not a lot.
And of course, were ignoring the fact that it takes, what, 4, 5 months to train up the skills to begin with. Those months are without farming SP, which means you have to pay for 5x20 accounts with plex or real money.
Thats 150 billion isk. That is a lot of isk just for ganking alts.
The level of dedication isnt nearly the same.
Oh, so they afk in 0.5 connection systems and type things in chat?
Wow. Sounds pretty hard.
I saw Kusion multibox 20 alts to gank a freighter once.
And thats kinda the point, isnt it. If you want, i can link the twitch channel where you can see Kusion do his thing, he has 20 EVE windows opened up, all lined up, and goes to each individual window and targets and attacks the freighter.
That takes a lot of effort.
Maintaining 20 accounts, takes a lot of effort.
Half the effort of that, would mean having 10 alts doing logistics or fleets or counter-ganks. But we dont even see half the effort.
Do we see a third of the effort? A quarter? No, we see 1/20th of the effort.
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I said they would train them to 5m SP as alphas. Yes it would take a while. I’ve trained up 30 gank alts myself doing this.
They are spending time there, actively following gankers and crowing at them non-stop. If they decided to organize and put forth effort, things could surely be different?
I’m not talking about difficulty between the two activities - ganking and anti-ganking… The point I’m making is these players sit around waiting for gankers to log on so they can start their crowing and stalking. I’m talking about their level of dedication here. The fact that they bother to try, yet put forth so little effort… then complain to CCP.
Yes, I have seen him doing his thing.
It’s really not that complicated nor difficult. Have you ever done it? He fleet warps to the target, broadcasts the target, then holds CTRL (or whatever he uses for targeting) and clicks once in a straight line on each client. It’s more clicking to warp in looters, then he fleet warps the pods out and docks them in reverse. I’m not discrediting him, because it’s cool and I admire it. I’ve done it myself on a smaller scale, but it’s by no means hard.
The effort is all in the account maintenance and initial setup. It’s a huge task to undertake, I agree.
Ganking isn’t exclusive to solo multiboxers, nor is anti-ganking. During Burn Jita Goon Bump Machs were being ganked by (5) stealth bombers. All you have explained to me is how gankers are seemingly more motivated and prepared. There’s no barrier into proper and effective anti-ganking that isn’t just as much of a barrier for ganking.
I can point to personal examples where I’ve been white knighted by individuals with great success that put forth just as much effort and preparation into it as I had. This imaginary barrier you have that it’s impossible for Anti-Ganking to do it well is strange… What do you think would happen if Kusion decided to AG Miniluv or other CODE. gankers?
Funnily enough there is an autistic antiganker that sits in uedama/niarja all day with 10-15 ospreys/griffins
Never saves freighters, but makes the gank cost a bit more i guess. If he wasn’t such a risk averse loser he’d be sitting in basilisks and make ganks significantly harder or impossible if hes on your target. 
99% of them would rather cry about how the mechanics they don’t understand are unfair then show up in a single griffin and jam a t1 cat. It’s actually 100% true.
I really don’t understand all the talk about antigankers/antiganking, they’re just a bunch of toxic idiots who sit around wasting their own time all day, dozens of hours a week.
At the end of the day what theyre trying to do is stop players from engaging in pvp and stop ships from being destroyed. I couldn’t imagine anything dumber than playing a video game to stop content from happening (sitting for hours and hours everyday doing this too.
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I said you would get into the bullshite and you did.
That is bullshite, if you cannot understood the context of being able to strip away all of the tackle then there is nothing worth discussing with you, as you are just trolling.
But here we are:
You got to it, it is because the ganker gets a huge ISK benefit from this while the AG gets nothing. Why are you acting all surprised about this when you actually understand it?
I know what needs to be done to stop gankers, however the best way is what is happening now, boredom and a lack of decent targets.
You are talking about a single player in most freighter ganks.
I am not interested in the word unfair, what I am interested in is correct game balance, they are not the same. This game is based on being unfair, however it has to have correct balance.
Your comments ignore the reality that if I use an Alpha account I can use only one character instead of my two Omega characters. So that is actually a non-argument, but are you suggesting that AG breaks the EULA in terms of alpha accounts?
And another thing is when you start talking about time, energy resource, while I understand you point you have to ask yourself what does the AG player get for putting the same amount of effort and resource in to it and the answer is nothing.
So reading you lot all surprised about this makes me wonder what you are thinking.
Boredom and a lack of real targets are what is going to end this, which I realised and am now seeing, which is a good thing. To be blunt if people tried to oppose Australian Excellence he would most probably not be bored, but there is no value in it.
So answer me this, why would I spend a huge amount of ISK, put a huge amount of effort in and spend my time waiting on gankers to save some idiots freighter which is made so easy by idiotic bumping mechanics? When I know that boredom and a lack of decent targets will do it eventually.
And there you have game balance in a single sentence.
No, don’t put words in my mouth. [quote=“Dracvlad, post:260, topic:133811”]
Boredom and a lack of real targets are what is going to end this, which I realised and am now seeing, which is a good thing. To be blunt if people tried to oppose Australian Excellence he would most probably not be bored, but there is no value in it.
So answer me this, why would I spend a huge amount of ISK, put a huge amount of effort in and spend my time waiting on gankers to save some idiots freighter which is made so easy by idiotic bumping mechanics? When I know that boredom and a lack of decent targets will do it eventually.
[/quote]
It’s easy to see that traffic isn’t the same as it was 2 years ago. I believe we’ve reached an equilibrium between overfishing, player stagnation, and being informed.
It’s as big of a waste of time to the ganker as it is the the guy trying to white knight, but both provide counter-play when done properly and that’s my point.
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No they don’t, why would I do this, why would I as a competent player invest time and effort in a competition that will make me incompetent due to its stupid imbalances. I have always known how to do it, the questions is why would I?
I realised it would collapse at some point, and I told people it was lame gameplay that was not worth opposing, in fact as I have pointed out in another thread they got the competition they deserved, Concord whores… 
Where do the imbalances lie? Do you not perceive it as being impossible to enter this arena at a bare minimum level and scoop the gankers loot? I understand that today is a different time and less ganks are happening for the reasons discussed, but that hasn’t always been the case. Historically when ganking was at its most active, you see AG under-performing in the same way as they always have. It’s the equivalent to showing up to work reliably, but you aren’t prepared with any of the materials you need. It’s more of a social event for AG.
There have always been those just whoring on CONCORD killmails. What I’m talking about is a profitable and worthwhile venture to the player that puts in the effort and does it well. You discredit those such as Rhamnoisa Nosferatu that were once the bane of Miniluv and a personal thorn in my ass.
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