There are all sorts of progression, not just power creep. Frigate to titan is a skill point progression. The point of my posts is that you need a long term hook. Striving to fly a titan took me years as the progression from frigate to titan is a long one. If you make supers/titans less compelling then you remove this hook.
Players that read about BR5, UALX etc aren’t going to have much to shoot for in Subcaps Online.
Why is it you want to remove all supercaps? I suspect we’re getting to the heart of your concerns by answering that.
Because PC Gamer articles captivate people, they are free advertising and sell the game. It’s why I started playing.
Maybe we’ll agree to disagree. The need for a ship in pvp doesn’t justify the statement that progression doesn’t exist when skill points absolutely disagree. If you were correct, there would be no need for players to train their SP past 10,000,000 or so or even ever omega up.
Because it removes your bias to fleet pvp to have to answer it. This game isn’t about just fleet pvp. If you think so you’ve missed a good chunk of the game.
Wait, who the hell is faming that much isk? In my 4 hours a day of gameplay, I’m happy to earn 800m on a quiet night in (again) a pvp fit nyx. That hardly covers a t2 fit/fighters in 30 days much less the hull. If I lose a fighter because someone comes down the pipe and I have to warp off (and one dies), well, I just lost over a half-a-hour of ratting right there.
I don’t think your ideas are lining up with the risks and loses that super pilots are taking here and some fantasy income that you think we’re capable of, but I’ve not heard of anyone in a super (with one account) ratting out some 30b isk per week. My God, yes please! But that’s totally selfish I realize.
It’s not about replacing the super-capital every week even though your numbers are way further off than my my estimates on the vigiant - again, it’s about risk vs reward. If we’re going on single-player numbers here, a normal person with a life that sits at the pc just 4 hours (a huge chunk of the day for me) ratting, there is no way you can achieve a new super fit and hull in just a week, not even 2 or 4, or 6 weeks. Not from just ratting.
Assuming that you could or that the fits and hulls are much cheaper, there is still exorbitant risks involved. You’re a big target for one and it’s not like it takes any length of time to scan you down. The risk is so high that the mere threat of a neutral sends supers to dock - because they’re selfish and don’t want to offer up themselves as sacrificial lambs for the slaughter?
Allow me to be frank and clear about something: Nothing in this game that’s fun makes much isk. Ratting is no exception. Small gang pvp is what I find to be the most fun but in PVP it’s all about the most “cost efficient fit” which means you earn jack for the kill. That means you need another source of income. Well if you hate spreadsheets, that leaves you with ratting or mining and mining is a giant steaming turd right now - pretty much the same nurf ratting is about to get - so you’re left with ratting.
But again, you’re coming at this entire argument dependent on an alliance that offers ship replacement. Not every alliance or corp is fortunate enough to have such a program - they don’t have the botters or renters to keep up those bills so everyone has to switch to an alt or take their ships out to rat to make up for a loss that day and the risk for ratting up that loss you’re talking about jacking up for less reward. We’re literally talking about a system that will lead to less pvp by removing currency from the game - not more.
I honestly love PVP in EVE. When I have the money to lose a ship, I’ll take it out and find trouble - and that’s what’s so awesome about this game imo. But I’m not a big fleet meta kind of guy (been there, bought that t-shirt a long time ago and quit the game of boredom from the long 3 hour form ups and waits for the FC to tell us to do something when I could have been out having fun the entire time in a smaller gang).
But again, the real problem with the economy boils right back down to botters. There are others here who have stated it, even CCP has stated it. Again, this is simply the wrong solution a solution I would expect a drill sergeant to use in BCT, because one person messes up, everyone must pay.
“High level of player combat and death? Multiplier goes up”
I did read the discussion protip regarding pvp et al, but in case it hasn’t been brought up already and hasn’t been considered, careful consideration will need to be put into how this is calculated.
Consider insurance, manufacturing and alt accounts.
If an alliance occupying x area were to keep some alts on hand which they ‘sacrifice’ in PVP to their mains to artificially bolster PVP statistics in an area, they could utilize this to drive up payouts for their region.
I can’t remember what the general rate of loss on an insured but unfitted ship is, so this mightn’t be relevant at all; but it could arguably become the case that even a 110% multiplier for an area heavily ratted might outweigh the ‘cost’ of the aforementioned multiplier-boosting method vs allowing that multiplier to drop to, say, 90% or even less.
Anyway, it seems like an interesting premise overall. I’d like to see it applied for missions in high-sec also, as I’ve discussed previously years ago, to encourage players to change where they’re doing their mission-running some.
This would increase the ‘distribution’ of ammo, drones and cap charges at the very least, as people end up needing these consumables in more systems/stations. It could bring value to mining in out-of-the-way areas where people might previously have avoided doing so owing to the time:isk weighting of mining there vs elsewhere when engaged in their own mine->manu->move->sell circuits.
Just for those disputing whether the big alliances will stop non vets ratting post ratting nerf. Here is the gated ratting for Pandemic Horde which CURRENTLY restricts the juicy systems to vets.
You’ll see this a lot more after this patch. The newer players won’t be allowed to rat.
The fact that you responded to my point about EVE working just fine before capitals existed with “you don’t know what makes nullsec players tick” as if it’s about player motivation and not the historical fact that capitals did not exist at all.
Frigate to titan is a skill point progression.
So is cruiser to frigate. The discussion is about linear progression between ship classes.
If you make supers/titans less compelling then you remove this hook.
Nonsense. Even if all capital ships were removed entirely it would still take literal years to competently fly all remaining classes, and that’s assuming you pick one faction’s ship line to specialize in.
Why is it you want to remove all supercaps?
Because their design is poor and their implementation is worse. The fact that we’re even talking about 1000 titan battles is a sign that something is badly wrong with the game.
I’m about to be done with you, because clearly, your english and reading comprehension is not up to par.
I will try one more, 8th time.
They cannot be operated because there is no reason for them to be operated or owned in blackout condition. The only viable playstyle was super under super umbrella, everything else, solo or whatnot, died.
A risk FOR WHAT? I hope you’re starting to get it, but odds are your risk-reward calculations have never gone beyond faction frigates.
What is it that I can obtain with capitals justified the certain death of using them in blackout condition? pvp? For what goal? There wasn’t any. Hence there is no way to use them to achieve anything at all.
A lack of goal works just as well. In a condition where the only viable sustainable way to stay in nullsec was super under super umbrella, using non-sustainable non-viable ships like caps and subcaps was simply not possible, provided you wanted to still be in nullsec after blackout. There are 2 ways to survive it: super under super umbrella, or unanchor everything and hunker down in a single citadel, burning the stockpile of fuel and ISK on sov bills. And then the threat of another blackout would force you to stay hunkered down, because it will once more remove every point of playing outside of being in a super under super umbrella.
Being an idiot is hard on everybody around you.
When you sit on a trap, you’re not farming anything. You have just confirmed that when you have to set up that trap, you lose.
I lost hundreds of manhours and gained nothing. Chaseoff is a loss. Killing them and producing a killmail is even bigger loss. There is no win in this system to be had, only escaping with minimal losses, which, in the current pvp-removing filament world, is to dock up and play a game of who-gets-bored-first. Bad option, but other options are much worse.
Once again, chickens are extremely risk-averse. They will only hit a trap if they can tell its safe. But you have to sit on that trap and lose the entire time. It’s a lose-lose situation for you and win-win for chickens, no matter how you look at it.
Procurer will get blapped in a few volleys. The response must sit on top of it, or it’s pointless. It will NEVER make it if it has to undock, or worse, get gated from another system, chickens will be off grid already by the time they land, which ANYONE who attempted this at least once will know, clearly showing that you know nothing and just a bad forum troll.
Exactly. And I also unrefutably established that pve ship cannot beat pvp ship, but it was 2 posts ago, so with your memory it must’ve slipped already. If it could, there would be much less roaming morons, the reason chickens are out is exactly because it can’t. You should sit on your bait (which is NOT a pve ship) in a pvp ship, and lose, for your trap to be effective, and only then they would refuse to hit it.
A) That is not ‘Null sec alliances won’t allow newer players to rat in their space’. That is ‘Pandemic Horde doesn’t allow newer players to rat in parts of their space’. Which, you know, is a massive difference. It’s the difference between ‘Birds cannot fly’ and ‘Certain types of birds cannot fly, unless you load them onto aircraft’.
B) If you don’t like how they do things, leave. That goes for anyone in GSF who doesn’t like how we do things. Go where you’ll be happy. JFC, life’s too short to sit someplace being miserable when you don’t have to.
C) No, we won’t. We will not tell people ‘you must be X high to rat in the good space’. Not gonna happen. Leadership in Goonswarm is not going to say ‘oh, well, those guys lost titans…’. Leadership in Goonswarm is gonna say ‘shut the ■■■■ up, we replaced your titan, quit bitching about the cute newbies, and no, you cannot claim ownership of a rock in a mining anom, you stupid ass, and if you keep bitching, we’ll throw you and your titan out a goddamned airlock for bluefucking’.
That’s what leadership in Goonswarm will do. I know this because guess what! I am leadership in Goonswarm.
You’ve played the game since 2014, according to evewho. I’ve been running fleet logi in tidi fuckfests longer. Supercapital fights are boring as ■■■■ in the moment.
TWO!!
BWAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, Oh, you sweet summer child… were they both in the last 2 weeks? Cuz we’ve done more than that in just those two weeks. And your mastery times are still completely bollocks’d. Here, lemme recap the important bit on ‘mastery in a titan vs mastery of every subcap’:
Don’t be silly. Who doesn’t love the feeling of going into a fleet fight at 5pm on Friday, not knowing whether you’re going to be out of an engagement in time to get enough sleep for your upcoming work-week?
Ah, Schrödinger’s filament gang: guaranteed to block your farming by killing any PvE ship you undock, but also unwilling to engage anything that could possibly be bait. You can’t have it both ways, if these players are as terrified of risk as you claim then it is trivially easy to prevent them from ever attacking. And if they are brave enough that you can’t effortlessly negate the threat then they can be engaged and destroyed.
Nonsensical. At one point in time WoW only had tier1 gear, after they introduced tiers2 and 3 people wanted to progress. Some players may miss the game as it was when only tier1 was available, but the horse has bolted.
The game will never be subcaps only and as I’ve explained countless times, they provide less long term hooks to keep people paying a sub.
You may not enjoy supercap gameplay, but that’s no reason to stop those that want it to have the ability to strive for it.
Let me spell it out for you; frigate to cruiser is quick, frigate to titan is long. My argument is two-fold:
The game needs long term hooks to retain people.
The game needs an environment where newer players can engage in null sec gameplay and “catch up” to vets over time.
Where’s the spectacle in that? PC Gamer writes about $1million supercap battles, it’s a tremendous selling point you’d be throwing away if you reduced the game down to Subcaps Online.
Why is it you think their design and implementation is poor? For the record, I agree, I think supers/titans need a better design. Why is it you think 1000 titan battles is wrong? They grab the headlines and lots of free advertising. Did you not see the Twitch viewer spikes for UALX? The final supercap battle in Delve is going to get tons of attention.
… will be a hundred battles, over the next five or ten years… provided you guys are all willing to commit to a war for that long. After all, the victory conditions are ‘Make Goons quit the game’. All we have to do is not quit, and the war goes on.
A trap is obvious to all but compete boneheads like you. There is no way to set up a working trap without a huge sign “it’s a loaded trap” on killboards and in space.
This goes exactly because they are terrified of risk.
It is fairly easy to prevent them from attacking.
The point you’re missing is: preventing them from attacking is by losing, either by docking up, or sitting on a trap like you got nothing better to do, and sov bills don’t pay themselves.
And that would be the worst case scenario! Now you got massive intel on kb, congrats, you have completely failed in home defense.
Log off trap.
Sure they know you’ve baited before from killboards… but will they engage…
Either they get too afraid to attack knowing it could be a log off trap, or they do engage and you can log off trap them and kill them. There is not a third option here long term.
Stop making WoW analogies. EVE does not have that kind of progression and the comparison is absurd.
The game needs long term hooks to retain people.
Capital ships are not required for this. Even if you only consider skill training goals training every subcapital class takes years.
The game needs an environment where newer players can engage in null sec gameplay and “catch up” to vets over time.
This is an extremely strong argument for removing capital ships entirely, as they are one of the largest barriers to entry for new players and new corps/alliances.
Where’s the spectacle in that?
Who cares about the “spectacle” of fake dollar amounts? Battles were fun before capital ships existed, they would be fun after they are removed. And people still wrote about EVE before capitals existed.
Why is it you think their design and implementation is poor?
The entire concept of an “endgame” alliance-scale ship was flawed, and CCP completely botched the implementation by not understanding how easy they would be to build as the economy scaled up. To fix them you’d effectively have to delete the entire existing concept and start from scratch.
Why is it you think 1000 titan battles is wrong?
Because 1000 of any class is boring compared to 1000 ships of a mix of classes. It makes it a battle of attrition where your quantity of the one overpowered class is all that really matters, not an interesting metagame full of viable paths to victory.
JFC you still don’t get it. If these filament gangs are as risk-averse as you claim then a giant “ITS A TRAP” sign is perfect because it immediately forces them to leave the system and go bother someone else.
To be fair and honest, it’s more of a formula based on large part to numbers, then pilot skill, and then fleet composition because most fleets generally have a relative composition to the fleet they’re fighting in sov battles - but admittedly it’s been a while since I’ve done the large fleet pvp meta
It’s you who doesn’t get it - having that sign out means you’re sitting on your trap and losing hundreds of man-hours. Once the trap is set up, you lost. Once the trap is not set, the chickens return. There is no win condition there.
And instantly disengage on local spike. That kind of trap only works on solo roaming battleships, because everything else will shake bait procurer tackle and wave you goodbye.
Even if they engage, you lose, because you leave killmails where you live, which is a #1 no-no to do if you want your space to be clear of hotdropping campers.
