CONCORD introduces the Dynamic Bounty System

Communications Center General Discussion
531

Null sec alliances won’t allow newer players to rat in their space.

Subcaps Online would be boring. You can skill into a subcap in weeks, supers takes years. If you reach endgame in weeks you’re not going to stick around for long. It would be akin to someone being able to reach Naxx gear in WoW within a few weeks.

Making supers compelling does quite a few things:

  • It leads to the massive supercap battles that the press write about. It’s what brought me and countless others to the game.
  • It provides a long term hook. Becoming a super pilot can take several years. Reading about the massive battles they’re involved in keeps people paying a sub to strive for them as a goal.
  • People talk about $1million dollar battles. That’s a wow-factor right. A subcap whelp, not so much.
  • Newer players and high sec players think they’ll love these changes because it diminishes a gamestyle they’ve not yet achieved, but in time it will just give new players less things to strive for and the pop will drop as it did post Blackout imo.

Incorrect. Eve worked great when supers were less prevalent, because people were still striving to fly them. Had supers not been introduced far less players would be around today and far fewer multi account subscribers.

What’s actually wrong with 1000 titan battles? People talk about 1000 subcap battles being amazing, why not 1000 titan battles? I’ve never understood why people object to capital proliferation. Having more big battles is great for the game and provides that long term hook.

Correct.

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532

Now tell me how long to Mastery V every subcap again?

533

Yeah it is. Hands down, total no-brainer. Sure, I can make more money if I leave my space more vulnerable… until someone blows up that IHUB, and then I can’t.

Reduced income is still better than none.

As long as it takes to break out the credit card and turn PLEX into ISK, ISK into skill injectors, and skill injectors into a massive pile of regrets? :smirk:

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534

But how are they “not allowing it” while also holding back and refusing to engage with their precious fleets?

Subcaps Online would be boring.

Utter nonsense. EVE did just fine for quite a while before capital ships existed, for even longer before supercapitals existed, and for much longer than that before supercapital proliferation turned them into standard assets instead of epic alliance-level centerpieces that defined entire wars.

If you reach endgame in weeks

EVE does not have this kind of endgame. There is no linear progression from frigate to titan, all classes remain relevant as you advance your character and it’s just a choice of which things to specialize in first. And getting every subcapital class trained to a competent level takes years unless you RMT a bunch of injectors.

I’ve never understood why people object to capital proliferation.

Because their design concept is bad, their balance is bad, and the result is that everything becomes focused around a single set of ships while the rest of the game is pushed out. Having a battle with 1000 titans is far less interesting than one with 250 frigates, 250 cruisers, 250 battlecruisers, and 250 battleships.

535

Far less time than it takes for Mastery V in a titan. Subcaps are also extremely cheap/disposable, where’s the risk in going out and whelping a bunch of HACs or a cloaky strat/loki etc

Subcaps are great for entry level play, call them the MC of WoW raiding.

Supers are there for those that want to spend years working towards a goal. Think of them as your Naxx tier3 epics in WoW.

If you asked a new player in MC gear in WoW whether they would want Naxx geared players nerfed that are stomping in BGs and I’m sure they’d be all for it… But that would destroy the long term hook of raiding right?

Please excuse the WoW analogy, that’ll be pretty meaningless if you’ve never played it!!

536

Making a WoW analogy is excused, making a totally wrong analogy no matter what the source is not excused and your analogy is terrible, because bigger is not better in EVE. Warframe is a much better analogy.

537

You’re ignoring the fact that this is not because there is no progression, in fact it is entire opposite, it’s evidence there is progression in which the majority of the player base has reached the end-game of. Again, this is the wrong solution for that problem. Which I realize you don’t recognize that there is an end-game but, there is. There has been. There will be.

Each ship has a purpose, and some of those purposes are critical in PVP but only in PVP. Let’s say for a moment we remove PVP for a day in EVE, which hauler class is the best? Duh. Which mining ship is the best? Again, duh. Outside of the PVP meta there are obvious “best classes” and they’re generally the big shiny ones that takes years to train the skills for. Which my entire point in this line of argument is to point just that out. That is progression. Your argument, correct me if I’m wrong, is that because every ship has it’s use in “fleet pvp” that there is no progression. In my [irl] company, every employee has their use as well, but that doesn’t mean there is no progression. In fact, just because everyone may have management pay doesn’t mean there is no progression. This argument of progression is again, silly.

Simply put, if there were no progression a day-1 character could jump straight into that “big shiny” ship I was just speaking of and be able to start taking out stations. I think there is a reason why there is progression and it’s a very intuitive reason for it. But that’s another argument for another day.

But this has derailed. The underlying issue is your complete disregard for the risk vs reward factor in this game. If you fly a big ship, you’re taking a big risk, and likewise, that reward should match that risk. If anything, it is fleet gankers in nullsec who completely break that meta taking virtually no risk sending in a cyno to check for a ratter who’s unaware of his presence (likely botting) and then drop a fleet on him and immediately cloak up after that kill. Again, 0 risk for the reward of about half of what the victim had which could total in the billions being a few billion for each participant. I’ve done it - I know how profitable it is.

So if you’re argument is that someone is simply making too much isk, then you might want to start lodging your petitions to have hot dropping nerfed (again). Which is why in good faith I’ll go back to the argument of economy. Removing (which it will) isk printing will cause a crash. Look at the market right now with the mining nerf. Now consider that there will be much less isk in circulation in just a few months because the isk destruction will not be able to keep up with the isk printing because anyone still stubborn enough to rat will still rat as safely as they can and if they can’t, they stop and find another meta. Again, eventually isk printing comes to a halt and CCP will be trying to fix yet another problem by using the wrong tool to fix what the real problem is.

Again, the problem is botting. There is nothing wrong with a player that sits in his/her chair and earns isk on a risk vs reward system. The system you’re suggesting greatly upsets that system giving unbearable risk to unbearable rewards. If it takes you a day in your economical fit to replace your ship if you get popped, it’s going to take you 8 days to replace it in this system unless you’re ratting out in the middle of no-where or in the middle of the frontlines between panfam and goons (which that’s kinda hard to find these days).

1 Like
538

It’s also meaningless because it has nothing to do with EVE. EVE does not have that kind of linear progression, nor should it.

539

100% wrong.

If there is linear progression which the majority of the player base has reached the endgame of then there is no need to tell people what ships to bring because the answer is obvious: every single player brings a titan in every single situation. If you have to develop fleet doctrines and tell people which ships to bring then it is proof that there isn’t a single correct endgame answer.

Let’s say for a moment we remove PVP for a day in EVE, which hauler class is the best?

Why would I care about such an absurd and irrelevant scenario? Of course a freighter is the best hauler class in the absence of PvP, but when considering which hauler class is best in the real game it gets much more complicated because of PvP threats.

If you fly a big ship, you’re taking a big risk, and likewise, that reward should match that risk.

Expecting to farm enough ISK to replace a supercapital every week is not “matching that risk”. It’s making risk irrelevant because your farming income is so absurdly out of balance that even the game’s most expensive assets become disposable.

Removing (which it will)

It will not. Nerfing income for some players is not the same as removing ISK generation, as hard as it is for you to imagine a world where you can’t farm enough to replace a supercapital every week.

If it takes you a day in your economical fit to replace your ship if you get popped, it’s going to take you 8 days to replace it in this system unless you’re ratting out in the middle of no-where

Ok? What’s your point? You’ve already identified one solution to the problem (ratting in the middle of nowhere), and you can also fly cheaper ships so that you’re replacing a ratting ship every hour and don’t care about the loss.

540

Your reading comprehension doesn’t get better, does it?
The ability to own capital ships was completely removed because:

  1. There was no way to undock and operate them, solo or not solo, in a condition where drop on them is ready and waiting.
  2. There was no reason to undock them because benefits of undocking them got utterly removed - there was no point in having them, because the goal of having better sov was obliterated, and capitals needed to get it lost their point with the crush of that goal.

Absolute bs.
First of all, you’re either compeltely dumb, or trying to ignore a thousand times more killmails people get when trying to defend in a pve ship against pvp ship, and naturally, it doesn’t go well. If you are ready to lose 1000 pve ships for 1 kill on them, I’d like to know where you rat.
Second, a bait ship is when you spend hundreds of manhours sitting on your bait like an idiot hoping someone as dumb as mr utter nonsense shows up to hit it, and is so bad at this game he can’t even check killboards. They lose nothing by engaging a bait ship, except maybe a T1 tackle frigate that engages first, because risk averse lowsec trash like you is cheap. All they need to do after that is to do the uncatchable bounce till timer goes, and chicken filament will be there to avoid pvp.

I explained it no less than two times. It seems that english is not getting through, and unfortunately, I’m not well versed enough in stupid to make sense to you.

Not just in local, but also not on scans anywhere. It’s VERY easy to see if people sit on their trap or were doing something else in a system by hitting dscan once and seeing docking pve ships. Like I said, it’s gotta be someone as stupid and as bad as you to hit the trap, it’s apparent yuo have zero experience with it, so stop being an embarrassment to all of eve.

Except you can only sit on your trap and cannot undock any actual pve ship, meaning you lose.

1 Like
541

Problem i see here is that CCP tries to do something against power mbox botters (Rorquals, Caps, Supers) and fucks up all the small players lingering around.

I mean funny to see random ice spawns moving around in null while in high sec you can set your clock on the appearing of ice belts … odd to see completly empty null sec asteroid belts without any rock at all while you afk orca exumer combo mine in high sec for tritanium.

Somehow i do not get what CCP is doing tbh.

Oddly i suppose that this will just kick small corps and renters in the … and powerblocks will care a … about that changes.

1 Like
542

Knowing CCP the minimum multiplier will be like 80% and everyone will just ignore this new fancy system entirely.

I can also see people killing out of alliance alts in noob ships and T1 frigates to simulate “PvP”

543

You’ve clearly never played in null sec. Line members either stay in line or they get kicked.

Pandemic Horde ALREADY do this, they have parts of TKE which are specifically gated off for their vets to rat in only and it’s all the juicy security system -0.8 and lower. If you join Horde and attempt to rat in one of the pockets for vets you get AWOX’d.

You’re in no real position to surmise what makes null sec players tick my guy. You are wrong here.

Your argument seems confused. There is a linear progression from frigate to titan, it’s right there in the ship interface in game. Agree that different ships server different purposes, titans can’t track frigates and good thing too. I fly supers to fight other supers. I fly subcaps to fight other subcaps.

What is it you think you’re gaining by stopping newer players becoming supercap pilots?

Profoundly disagree here. Nobody talks about a big subcap battle like they talk about BR5 and PC Gamer seems to agree with me there based on their articles.

Their concept is great, they are the big shiny stuff people want to destroy, their balance has been bad at times, but reducing their ability to fight subcaps helped a lot here.

1 Like
544

Yeah, this is patently untrue. And utterly ridiculous, coming from a member of an alliance founded specifically to hoover up as many new players as they can get, and has been in both Dreddit and Karmafleet. Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, KF… pretty much every major alliance either has a robust ‘bring new players in’ corp, or they whole alliance is one. You need new people. You also need as many people as you can get. And when they get out to null, you need them to be able to afford ships, skill books, etc etc etc.

So yeah, we love newer players ratting in our space. As long as they’re our newer players. If someone is telling you newer players aren’t allowed to rat in Horde space, someone is telling you Horde wants to die, fast. I suggest you check w/Gobbins on that before spouting that nonsense. I know KF never told you that. Hell, Goonswarm’s got entire guides on how players who’ve been in the game less than a week can start making money ratting or salvaging, whichever they prefer.

Because as much as love the big fights, supercapital battles are dull. Seriously, they’re so dull, you couldn’t even spread a soft brie with them. Worse, capital and supercapital proliferation leads to nullsec stagnation. Consider the current war. Without literally 100+ alliances and 150,000 characters, nobody was challenging the Imperium’s supercapital fleet. Nobody. In another year or two, FRT’ll be in that position because they literally order their members to maintain an alt for ‘printing ISK’ via supercapital ratting in the Drones, where there’s no NPC space for people to hunt from.

Capital proliferation means the never-ending arms race of ‘OMG, we need stupid numbers of titans… or nothing happens.’ And no, the only person who was talking about a ‘million dollar battle’ was Progod, because he was trolling and trying to be a smartass, but he’s too much of a dumbass, so people thought he was trying to be serious.

How many 16h tidi slugfests have you sat through? How many times have you blown the whole day watching modules not actually work? I promise, by the end of this war, you’ll know why 1000 titan battles are only fun in hindsight.

In fact, this is also untrue. It takes a lot less time to train one titan’s skills than it does to train up…

[Racial Frigate] x4, [Racial Destroyer] x4, [Racial Cruiser] x4, [Racial Industrials] x4, [Racial Battlecruiser] x4, [Racial Battleship] x4, [Racial [Subsystems]] x16, Mining Frigate, Expedition Frigates, Mining Barges, Industrial Command Ships (NOT Capital Industrial Ships), Assault Frigates, Covert Ops, Electronic Attack Ships, Interceptors, Logistics Frigates, Command Destroyers, Interdictors, Heavy Assault Cruisers, Heavy Interdictors, Logistics Cruisers, Recon Cruisers, Transports, Command Ships, Black Ops Battleship, Marauders, Exhumers, Precursor Frigates, Precursor Destroyers, Precursor Cruisers, Precursor Battlecruisers, Precursor Battleships, EDENCOM Frigate, EDENCOM Cruiser, and EDENCOM Battleship

… all to 5.

All those fitting skills you need for the titan? Yeah, you need them for those, too. And you need both sets of tanking skills, and all 24 weapon skills (which is 38 weapon specialization skills)… hell, Titans don’t even need Fighter skills.

It takes 1,275d to hit Mastery V in an Avatar. 1190d to hit it in a Golem.

You really want to bet it won’t take another 85d to get every other subcap? Remember, it’s 180d just to get all 6 racial cruisers to V.

545

To expand on this even further, even in the absence of PvP threats it isn’t obvious, because what are you hauling, are you hauling 1m volume items, in which case a BR may haul your entire stash at a far greater pace.

You can’t afk orca exhumer mine.
That’s literally the definition of at keyboard being busy if you do that. It takes more actions and is Hulks which can’t even hold 2 cycles of ore at that point. You clearly are not a serious miner or you would know better.

1 Like
546

30%. The rest of your statement is true though, because knowing doesn’t mean they can do anything about it.

Which is 540th post with that exact idea here, but CCP keeps silence as usual, probably because they never saw that coming, because CCP.

547

Incorrect. There is no way to operate them for solo farming. There are plenty of ways to operate them in PvP, and you also had the option of taking them elsewhere using that wonderful jump drive they’re equipped with. You were just too afraid to risk your ships without local to effectively guarantee their safety.

Now, there’s no shame in being sensible with your expensive assets and avoiding excessive risk, but don’t pretend that caution is the same as not being able to use them at all.

Second, a bait ship is when you spend hundreds of manhours sitting on your bait like an idiot hoping someone as dumb as mr utter nonsense shows up to hit it

Cool. So you admit that you can sit there farming for long periods of time without ever encountering a threat. You have just conceded that filament groups are not a problem.

All they need to do after that is to do the uncatchable bounce till timer goes, and chicken filament will be there to avoid pvp.

At which point you’ve chased them off and lost nothing. What’s the problem here?

It’s VERY easy to see if people sit on their trap or were doing something else in a system by hitting dscan once and seeing docking pve ships.

You do understand that combat recons and cloaked ships exist, right? As well as various ships that can jump in from another system? No wonder you’re struggling at this, you don’t even understand basic bait strategies.

Except you can only sit on your trap and cannot undock any actual pve ship, meaning you lose.

Why can’t you undock a PvE ship? You’ve already established that these players are going to refuse to engage if anything can shoot back.

548

Pandemic Horde already gates off parts of their space for their vets to rat in. Newer members are not permitted to rat in the juicy systems.

Goons, Brave and Test allowed anyone to rat and this is my point, I PREFER THAT MODEL. I want new players to be able to join an alliance and start earning some ISK, but when the amount of ratting available becomes limited, you can bet those alliances will start to restrict their space to their vets. Those vets have lost supers/titans for the alliance so it will feel “fair” to the leadership to prioritise them.

The little guy will get squashed.

TIDI battles are what I sub for. Love them. Subcaps battles are boring, no risk in flying a 400m Eagle or 300m Munin. It’s using your big toys that brings on the pvp shakes once you’ve played the game for as long as I have.

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549

Just going to stop you right here since you’re apparently unaware of the fact that capitals did not exist at the beginning of EVE, and the game worked just fine without them. This is indisputable historical fact.

There is a linear progression from frigate to titan, it’s right there in the ship interface in game.

There really isn’t. A linear progression means A is better than B, B is better than C, C is better than D, etc. That doesn’t exist in EVE at all. A titan is not better than a frigate, it has an entirely different role.

What is it you think you’re gaining by stopping newer players becoming supercap pilots?

I said no such thing. Nobody is stopping them from becoming supercap pilots, unless I get my desire to remove all supercapitals from the game, veteran and newbie alike.

Profoundly disagree here. Nobody talks about a big subcap battle like they talk about BR5 and PC Gamer seems to agree with me there based on their articles.

Why exactly am I supposed to care about what non-players talk about outside of EVE? I care about the game I’m playing, not some random non-player’s opinion of it.

550

So put a billion ISK in PLEX in your cargo if you want your lossmails to be more expensive.