CSM 17 Summit Review

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Brisc_Rubal

They are simply people unhappy with the fact that something is changing.

You use an absolutely untypical screen setup as justification for dismissing any and all of the problems pointed out. Didn’t expect less of you. And on top of it, you use scenarios that are not the same.

And even then the screenshot shows functional differences and shortcomings. For instance:

• the chat tabs’ user count is truncated, even in your very wide tabs. My chat window is much narrower and I don’t even see 4 letters of my chats, let alone the user count.
• The fleet position info is gone. You now have to open extra menus to figure that out instead of just looking at the window
• Chat buttons are gone to manipulate the view or access the settings easily. Requires more clicks to get there and on top of it you have an unsteady UI because the user counter appears and disappears depending on how many chars are in a chat.
• The drone window’s bottom anchoring of the active drones causes unnecessary unsteadiness in the UI for no rational reason.
• In the overview, the active filter info is gone and only viewable by tooltips or under the three dots. More effort to get the same results as in the old UI.
• Your fleet window needs to be larger to accommodate the same number of visible member rows. Granted, this is in part because of the nicer, bigger broadcast icons, hence not entirely the fault of unnecessary padding.
• the drone window does not tell you in an easily visible way how many of the max 5 drones are in space. It only shows that info as “(x/5)” in a tiny spot on an unsteady and harder to read UI header.
• This one is subjective, but it’s another instance of lackluster implementation quality: While it is great that I can finally make the Neocom opaque, after so many years of requesting it, CCP’s implementation made it impossible for me to make certain UI elements transparent via Light Background/Pinning them because I had to turn Transparency for Light Background to 0 to make the Neocom opaque. Now I can’t have a transparent fleet chat, transpartent drone window and transparent watchlist any more.

And these are just the issues in your barebones setup. These may not be issues for you but other people want a more informative UI for good reasons.
What Syzgium wants would require me to take several comparison screenshots with different menus open, and that’s definitely not an effort I’ll undertake just to accommodate for someone’s laziness to look at existing problem reports and accompanying pictures. Thanks for proving my points that Photon obstructs, hides information and makes using the UI a worse experience.

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@Dyver_Phycad

You use an absolutely untypical screen setup as justification for dismissing any and all of the problems pointed out.

Certainly explains the Marie Antoinette approach of “Let them eat cake”!

Now, for those of us working in 1920x1080…

[Drake_Iddon]

1920x1080 here and i really dont see any lower information density, if anything the extra overviews has massively increased it

pre-photon (fleet window was moved because i was logi):

photon:

focusing on the cargo hold/local and the original overview+dscan, the amount of information presented for the real estate it takes up is almost exactly the same (if anything its more information dense)

[Dyver_Phycad]

• You see fewer items in your cargohold, and if you bloatpact it to see more, you lose the easy to read fill indicator, the view change icons and the search box if you stack it.

• Your Overview has either fewer columns in Photon or you lost the hint of the Angular Velocity column in Photon, even though you had to narrow the Name column significantly over the Name column in the old UI.

• Same column issues happen in the Dscan window.

• Your fleed window tabs are heavily truncated and you only see 3 tabs instead of all tabs, despite the window being only marginally narrower than in the old UI.

• Your chat is not comparable because one has compact member list, the other not.

• Your watch list is also not comparable because it’s not the same scenario.

• It’s also harder to see that your chats have new content, especially in your transparent madness.

• It’s harder to see which chat is active, too

• The standing tags in Photon in chat are extremely blurry compared to the old UI, especially before the blurriness from Photon spilled over into the old UI. (visible in the distorted tech tags on modules. Before Photon, they were perfectly centered and crisp in the old UI, but then Photon ruined them there as well.)

Overall, you are trying to compare 2 different UI setups… That’s not helpful at all, which is in turn very much in line with the Photon lover argumentation. And even in this biased and hardly comparable setting you can easily find issues that the old UI didn’t have and that Photon shouldn’t have either.

Sure, you got more overviews, but the old UI elements all show less information, more truncated information, harder to see and use information. Sure, you can get used to that and work around it, but that doesn’t mean Photon is better than the old UI in these aspects.

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@Drake_Iddon

1920x1080 here and i really dont see any lower information density, if anything the extra overviews has massively increased it

The overviews are of no interest to me, the old version was perfectly adequate once I had customised it to meet my needs. And you are confusing density with volume.

[Drake_Iddon]

You see fewer items in your cargohold, and if you bloatpact it to see more, you lose the easy to read fill indicator

fill indicator doesnt matter for me as you cna just hover over the cargo icon next to the capacitor, i can see the exact same amount of icons in my cargo as before

• Your Overview has either fewer columns in Photon or you lost the hint of the Angular Velocity column in Photon, even though you had to narrow the Name column significantly over the Name column in the old UI.

I have the same amount of columns, I never used angular velocity previously i was just never bothered to turn it off, i also have a tonne of unused space in the photon so i can just extend the name colum back out

• Same column issues happen in the Dscan window.

my dscan across both screenshots have the exact same information? nothing has been lost

• Your fleed window tabs are heavily truncated and you only see 3 tabs instead of all tabs, despite the window being only marginally narrower than in the old UI.

yeah thats one part i agree with you on

• Your chat is not comparable because one has compact member list, the other not.

thats fair but its not really relevant to the point, compact chat pre and post photon are pretty much the same

• Your watch list is also not comparable because it’s not the same scenario.

the width hasnt changed between those screenshots, only length, again the functionality is unchanged

• It’s also harder to see that your chats have new content, especially in your transparent madness.

i literally have no issue with that at all, the old version of chat blinking was absolutely maddening to me so i had all chat blinks off until photon

transparency is king but you do you

• It’s harder to see which chat is active, too

no it isnt, at least for me i guess

The standing tags in Photon in chat are extremely blurry compared to the old UI, especially before the blurriness from Photon spilled over into the old UI.

never looked at them in detail so not going to agree or disagree here, i’ll have a looky next time im online

Overall, you are trying to compare 2 different UI setups… That’s not helpful at all

which i literally told you about, so i said to compare the parts that hadnt changed

which is in turn very much in line with the Photon lover argumentation.

you realised i ■■■■■■■ HATED photon for a huge amount of time until they got it to this point? maybe don’t lump me in with some made up fanboy group

And even in this biased and hardly comparable setting you can easily find issues that the old UI didn’t have and that Photon shouldn’t have either.

its no more biased than any other persons personal interactions with the UI, there are some minor areas that need improvement which i hope CCP does, but that doesn’t warrant coming out guns blazing saying its a terrible downgrade and everyone should boycott photon until CCP does something, thats just childish

Sure, you got more overviews, but the old UI elements all show less information, more truncated information

if i had the choice between truncated tabs on menus and literally having multiple overviews (even though why not both is the correct option) then i would always go with the latter

[Drake_Iddon]

The overviews are of no interest to me

to each their own but I cant really understate how much of a powerful tool multiple overviews are for more efficient system and grid awareness, especially if you are in a specialised role like anti boosh hic, etc

And you are confusing density with volume.

for ~30% more real estate, im gaining +300% simultaneous overview tabs, that is more information dense

[Kenneth_Feld]

Obviously, I can’t say the actual numbers, but if we had that many new players - the game is safe for many years to come.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Dyver_Phycad

Thanks for proving my points that Photon obstructs, hides information and makes using the UI a worse experience.

Not a single one of your laundry list of issues is real.

There is functionally no difference in either of my set ups. And while I freely admit I have one of the largest monitors on the market (hence, why my advice to you stands), even on one of my smaller three monitors, there’s really no comparable difference.

These are all the worst kind of quibbles, and I expect that in a few weeks you will have forgotten most of your concerns.

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@Drake_Iddon

for ~30% more real estate, im gaining +300% simultaneous overview tabs, that is more information dense

Only if the desired information is available through the overview. Across the whole UI, density is far lower.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Brisc_Rubal

These are all the worst kind of quibbles, and I expect that in a few weeks you will have forgotten most of your concerns.

I won’t because I have been using Photon since January to get accustomed to this crapshow and to find more issues that make my gameplay experience worse so that they get fixed. I grow ever more frustrated with it the more I use it.

These things may all be laundry issues to you but you are not the center of the universe, despite your best efforts to make people believe you are. These issues may not bother you but they bother other people. Plus, the issues are not imaginary just because you are satisfied with mediocre.

@Brisc_Rubal

(hence, why my advice to you stands),

Then I can expect a handy donation of Euros to my bank account?

[Syzygium]

Were “chat filters” a topic on the summit? I have seen many people asking for the option to filter out all these contract/hypernet/recruitment links at least in local chats to make them useful for any conversation again. Would be a nice QoL thingy, because currently the local is almost unusable in populated systems.

[Dyver_Phycad]

You really have to block a lot of chars for days on end to get rid of most of these bot(-aspirants) and their alts. It’s quite bothersome. Not to mention the annoying invite to the Hypernet gambling channels that don’t stop.

[Lavacano]

Looks like the CSM Summit was a success. Let’s hope the only bugs that get fixed are in the game and not in their meetings.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Dyver_Phycad

These things may all be laundry issues to you but you are not the center of the universe, despite your best efforts to make people believe you are. These issues may not bother you but they bother other people. Plus, the issues are not imaginary just because you are satisfied with mediocre.

You and the random dude are then only people I see making these laundry lists of complaints. Even going over the Photon channels, I don’t see a lot of other people being as heavily critical as you are.

@Dyver_Phycad

Then I can expect a handy donation of Euros to my bank account?

If I buy you a new monitor, will you stop posting?

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Syzygium

Were “chat filters” a topic on the summit? I have seen many people asking for the option to filter out all these contract/hypernet/recruitment links at least in local chats to make them useful for any conversation again. Would be a nice QoL thingy, because currently the local is almost unusable in populated systems.

They were not, and I don’t know how you’d implement it. The guys programming the bots can figure out pretty quickly what the parameters that are being filtered and change their messages to not use those words.

[Shinigami_Shinda]

Brisc I think he means the same as I complain about the new UI.

If you compare the field in the old 340000 was clear to see in the new due to some strange shading they do.

That’s also if you compare total letters visible in the chat header tab or on the overview tab.

If that’s fixed im total with you about it beeing better in terms of style.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Brisc_Rubal

You and the random dude are then only people I see making these laundry lists of complaints. Even going over the Photon channels, I don’t see a lot of other people being as heavily critical as you are.

I am not sorry that I am not the silent majority that CCP relies so heavily on when it comes to pushing questionable features into the game. The forums are for giving feedback and that’s what I do. I provide positive feedback where it’s justified and point out problems where they occur. If you don’t like that, you should maybe reconsider your role.

@Brisc_Rubal

If I buy you a new monitor, will you stop posting?

I stop posting when CCP releases better features. If I don’t have anything to complain about, I don’t need to post.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Dyver_Phycad

I am not sorry that I am not the silent majority that CCP relies so heavily on when it comes to pushing questionable features into the game. The forums are for giving feedback and that’s what I do. I provide positive feedback where it’s justified and point out problems where they occur. If you don’t like that, you should maybe reconsider your role.

There’s good feedback and then there’s bad feedback. At some point, when you are quibbling over picas, good feedback can turn into bad. I think you are as close to that line as it’s possible to get, if you haven’t stepped over it.

@Dyver_Phycad

I stop posting when CCP releases better features. If I don’t have anything to complain about, I don’t need to post.

Hey, I offered.

[Vortigern_Vitalis]

@Brisc_Rubal

There’s good feedback and then there’s bad feedback.

And only you can judge it? Maybe the feedback you and others on the CSM are giving to CCP is bad, because you are so dismissive of anything that does not match your ever so humble opinion?

Read those threads - there are simply loads of people other than @Dyver_Phycad and myself criticising the poor design choices and poor implementation of Photon. No one is against the concept of Photon or a desire to modernise the UI. We are opposed to the very obvious lack of needs analysis, coherence, ease of use, functionality and efficiency that is evident in what CCP have produced.

I am sorry, but your attitude is rather akin to saying that a 1980s De Lorean looks far better than a 1980s Ford Escort. But guess which one actually worked reliably.