[December] UPDATED: Jump Fuel and Jump Fatigue Cap changes

[Matsu_Fumiko]

“It’s a 106 jumps to New Eden, we have a full tank of gas, half a package cigarettes, it’s dark and we’re wearing sun glasses.”

[Sakido_Cain]

@Ben_Ishikela

Have you thought about restricting the source of an ice-component to WH’s Icebelts?

Goal: To make risky mining worthwhile.

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Example: Heavy Water -> Alliances need to cooperate with WH expeditions to fuel their needs. Although they want to close all WH quickly. So there is a worthwhile decision to be balanced.

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Maybe offtopic but meh.

Can we stop with the, poor me I live in WHs and can’t make money. You are full of it, we all know it and nobody is going to back you up on it.

[Sakido_Cain]

@Dea_Doughmaker

Goon f**king at its best. Since they are so strong economically why not make importing to Jita more expensive for them. Also why not make changes in such a way that every Dick and Harry can now train a bunch of ganking alphas, put them in cruisers and gank any freighter they can lay their eyes on. Freighters, with new alpha changes, will be unusable.

Hey, don’t get mad at Goons for this. Yet another set of changes many of us in Goonswarm feel are just as stupid as the rest of Eve do. Unfortunately for the rest of y’all, this will help us rather than cause any real strain. Funny part is CCP thinks it is the other way around.

[Sakido_Cain]

@Agfro_Er

I remember talk of citadel vulnerable state changes at EVE Vegas. The citadel changes would require constant fueling of at least one service at all structures. This proposed citadel change would significantly increase my corp’s demand for fuel.

Please keep the proposed citadel changes in mind when considering changes to fuel costs and demands.

Lol, you don’t get it, CCP doesn’t plan from one action to the next. They do something see a flaw and speed to correct it. They don’t look at the next set of changes and figure that they can apply the nerf to the coming changes, which tend to be met with less hate. Also they treat cap pilots with contempt, always have. So dumping cost changes on cap pilots is just another in a long like of FUs to the pilots that bring the most outside appeal to the game.

[Sakido_Cain]

@zluq_zabaa

While @CCP_Fozzie, you name the goal of this change, you don’t let us in on any reasons for these goals. Don’t you think that there are enough people who provide counter-arguments, to at least go into specifics why CCP thinks this needs to be done?

Why would he let you in on the reasons. They normally revolve around him trying to help his PL buddies, or him trying to make life harder for groups like Goons. These are things he can’t come out and say, so he says nothing.

Too bad he is a clueless ming mong and ends up helping Goons and hurting his beloved PL with his dumb ideas. Well too bad for the rest of Eve, but good for Goons so I am of mixed concern.

[Sakido_Cain]

@Pestilen_Ratte

Believing that a “market”, that has been designed and refined by teams of people focused on providing entertainment, is “driven by players” is a nice way of thinking.

It’s all made up. It’s not player driven. There are players doing things that drive some things, some times, but on the whole the entire edifice is constructed for player entertainment.

CCP will no doubt have a special internal team for corporate customers. This team will flatter and cajole the large customers with entertaining changes to the game. Another team will be responsible for the rank and file players. They also flatter and cajole players with entertaining changes to the game.

This myth that things are done “because it is a pure sandbox” and that changes are made to “keep things balanced” is very hard to enjoy.

The game is supposed to be a huge space universe where folks do as they please in ways that amuse them. Mostly, that turns out to be shooting at rocks and professing a belief in a god given economy.

Are we not entertained?

I am entertained. CCP openly states on a regular basis that this change or that one is to balance the market. They don’t hide it, but are really bad at doing it, likely cause they fired the econ guy who for years made the market a reliable factor of Eve.

Yes, CCP, panders to the masses in a variety of ways, and on many levels. That is just business. Unfortunately, doing this often leads to stupid calls, in the name of customer service, but done in knee jerk ways that lead to more spite cause they are normally too focused on minor details to look at the big picture.

[MetalJacke1_McKenzie]

I think it’s a great maneuver to balance the soon absence of starbases and ensures that the price of ice maintains the steady flow of ice products from mining corps. I’m not seeing a big impact or nerf considering the fuel bay increase and in fact Im willing to bet that the price for Ice will still continue to fall for a little bit.

[Keno_Skir]

@Querns

What could CCP do to make small groups thrive in nullsec?

Eliminate jump drives

[HyperTitn]

So I wasn’t that against the jump fuel changes. However, I made one jump in my widow today and it used almost half my fuel bay. As a solo/micro gang player…this almost eliminates black ops for me which is one of the only things I do in this game.

[zluq_zabaa]

@Sakido_Cain

Why would he let you in on the reasons. They normally revolve around him trying to help his PL buddies, or him trying to make life harder for groups like Goons. These are things he can’t come out and say, so he says nothing.

Because CCP makes the effort to put their ideas out here for people to discuss them, so it would only be natural to explain why they think something is necessary. Could improve the discussion and all that. Being cynical about Devs doesn’t seem to help improve such or any communications, so I try to refrain from it. You should try it out

[Francis_McLean]

@CCP_Fozzie

Over long timescales we would like to make major changes to the way jump fatigue works, as the system hits its mechanical goals but doesn’t create a good user experience. However in the meantime we are planning an intermediate step of reducing the cap on jump fatigue by 20%. This means that the maximum blue timer will be 4 days and the maximum red timer will be 9.6 hours.

Wow something that’s actually good for the game? Would be nice if they just reduced jump fatigue by like 50% but i guess its a step in the right direction and promising to see that they are planning on major changes

[MMak]

Brilliant point!

[MMak]

Nothing good will happen till CCP fire Fozzie and his team

[Demortis]

Someone needs to have a sitdown with most of ccp they are not fixing anything last 10-15 nerfs messed things up alot but what helps them does not help us out it helps the pocket books. The people that play HS should have protection against - Standing players at all costs and the guys in null should be out in null it’s a game that really only has one side the pvp side is all that matters. They don’t care about it not even for a second I don’t mind paying more in fuel if the value of what I produce can handle the change I’m fine with it. But really you just make us pay more to move around while not fixing anything else big whoop.

[Dr_Bownes]

Ok guys. Tried to go through the entire topic. It results in a weird and pathetic try to catch it all. I see 3 points so far:

1. Use of jumps and impossibility to deploy a skirmisch due to excessive jump fatigue ;
2. Use of capital ships in engagements, making work-around really absurd : jump clones and tons of supers spreads across the galaxy, eventually transforming PvP ships into gentle PvE cash-machines ;
3. Diminution in fuel uses, causing brokes into ice-miners population.

Tons of ideas spred fron this topic, all going for less jump fatigue and pore usages for ice. Great. Please read my “two cents” :

1. Give any jump-capable ship a pool of jumps at the beginning, say 5 jumps. Any jump can be activated in a row, giving more possibilities to JF to spread the gallaxy with tons of materials and supers and caps a real projection force. the recovery of each jump os a matter of time, with the lasts ones really long (say from 1-hour to 2-months recovery timer). The planification of a long strand invasion will have to take a long time, when a next-door-skirmish could be planned at glance. In the same time, give a pool of jumps capability to any pilot, with a similar recovery system (more jumps, say 15-20, reduced jump timer, say 1-hour to 1-month, with a gentle slope). Give the all buff possibilities via skills (ship jump recovery, pilot jump recovery, pilot jump capability, etc.) and you will eventualy give a brand new game for caps pilots.
2. immobilizing caps and supers due to jmp fatigue, the freightening pvp machines transforms to gentle pve cash-machines. Ok, so you may ‘cap’ the number of caps and supers a single pilot can own or handle. Say, 3 or 4 supers and a tenth of caps, thats it. No more titans spreads across the entire gallaxy. the owning of a super may also be conditionned by a tax payment, that could be exponential too. Less caps, more stuff for other ship types. Anyway, the building of a titan is no more of a problem for big coas by now. So this could be a kind of “super-armament limitation”, as per the IRL hydrogen-bombs limitation agreement. This could give the meta game more tricky and force strategic and tactical big moves, uh ?
3. Ice products have tons of uses, not only jump fueling. Give a consuming boost to citadels and you will rapidly see the raise in ice products demand, as you will nerf the cita spreading everywhere in the gallaxy. Building someting expensive is no more a problem in the game. Maintaining things operational is a true mind-blowing test of intelligence at every level, and an absolutely fantastic challenge for big coas CEOs.

Jmtc, anyway.

[Jorsten_Meissner]

Here are a couple ideas…

First, split the isotopes into two types instead of four, that keeps a certain amount of regional-interdependence, but reduces some of the current headache of flying more than one race of caps. So, turn the Nitrogen and Oxygen into ‘Diatomic Isotopes’ and the Helium and Hydrogen into ‘Monatomic Isotopes’. You get to use some real chemistry terms, and you’ll still have people trading or raiding with their neighbors for the fuel they need. Reducing the number of products raises the demand for the remaining two, and should cut down on regional niches a little.

Now, as for a greater long term fix to jump fatigue; (and I’m sure somebody has either thought of or mentioned this already) why not have jump fatigue reduce the length of subsequent jumps?

Use an exponential curve for jump distance reduction as it relates to the jump fatigue timer. Sure, you can move your cap fleet halfway across the cluster, but you’re going to be spending lots of fuel to do it. This won’t hurt the JF pilots if everyone can keep their current maximum pre-fatigue jump range, but gives them the added option of making a couple expensive 1LY-.5LY jumps to get to their destination rather than just waiting on fatigue timers. People will choose to make those jumps which comes with the obvious benefit of increasing the demand for fuel, thus helping out the ice miners.

The big guys can certainly handle the fuel and cyno cost, but won’t be cruising around dropping supers on everything, because…

You jump across the cluster with your fleet, but when it times to GTFO you’re only making expensive and short jumps to get home, this adds a huge layer of strategy, since it leaves them wide open for subcap pursuit fleets. You can easily chase down a cap fleet if it’s moving .5LY at a time, where you can easily drop your own non-fatigued fleet on top of it.

The whole thing comes with enough prohibitive risk and cost that it wouldn’t happen often, and would result in some awesome fights when the risk doesn’t pay off. It also doesn’t force any cap pilot, freighter or combat, into logging off because they can’t do anything but wait for a fatigue timer to spool down.

Just something to think about.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

My challenge to making fuel bays 100 times bigger is that it makes it very easy to move all your fuel in a single hauler. The challenge for logistics to get it to your market hub is something I believe is healthy for the game.
If there was a way it got locked into your fuel bay and couldn’t just get taken back out I would be on board with your idea for your reasons though as I agree the individual combat pilot aspect isn’t engaging.

[Old_Pervert]

The goal should always be to get capitals into a fight that they’re staged to get into.

Carriers and faxes are by far the two that will be strained with fighters and consumables, and they can carry those into the fight.

Dreads are throw-away anyways, so they really only need to even think about fuel while they’re travelling, which honestly is pointless busywork for a hauler.

Running out of fuel means stuff stays docked. It means blueballs rather than good fights.

Resupply after the fight absolutely, the logistics will be busy bringing in hundreds of new fighters. Thousands depending on your cap fleet. And that matters because now you’re unable to take the fight, not just unable to get to the fight. One is a cost of fighting, the other is just boring.

Any long range travel op, there will be a fuel truck or ten travelling with the fleet and there will be fuel staged in the citadels they jump to. That screams of “meh it’s annoying but the workaround is simple”.

[Othar_Hamund]

Of greater concern than Fuel Size and Consumption are the Jump Fatigue changes, which seem to be dramatically at odds with the spirit of earlier “Fozzie Sov” dialogue, in which to own and control space you must continuously defend it. Jump Fatigue is what (until this change) prevented large Alliances from making rapid strikes far across the map and then pulling back to defend their own territory the same day. With these changes, this is no longer the case. You don’t need to leave the home front weakly defended on an extended deployment with your Titans and Supers, and worry about enemies taking advantage while you’re gone. You can pop your whole Fleet out and back, relatively unhampered by Fatigue, with almost no scathe other than fuel cost – which is pretty much inconsequential anyway. Surely, this is understood by the Dev Team. What is their planned outcome from this change? More conflict? More friction? More SuperCap and Titan Blobs across the map? Increased domination of stronger Alliances over weaker ones? Enquiring minds want to know.