That being said, the current meta has already been broken down by scarcity, you just want to set fire to what is left. I came to the conclusion that you and other players like you wanted to see Eve die because they had diverted from what you saw was the pure PvP that never existed in what was always a sandbox game.
You think it would be better if there was a delay in local, I don’t as I see the balance is about right.
I threw that back at you because you defined my opinion as rambling.
Do you think it is OK that ships which warp to safety as soon as a name appears in local are completely safe from PvP?
I don’t think the balance is right at the moment, it is too much in favour of people who use local chat intel as it allows complete safety, provided you automatically get to safety when local warns you.
Those people could be using may other tools to keep an eye out for danger, tools that allow for interaction, smart play and counterplay. Tools like friends in other systems, combat probes, alts on gates, d-scan to check gates… and that’s not even including all the 3rd party tools like a zkillboard feed that tells you about kills in your region.
People can be lazy, ignore all those tools and only keep an eye on local. If they do that and warp off when they see danger, they are completely safe. There is no way to play around local, except log-in tricks with interdictors when the locals are too predictable about their path to safety.
Local was never designed to be an intel tool, but it grew to be one. All other intel tools have been designed with interaction in mind. D-scan has limitations and can be avoided. Combat probes have limitations and can be avoided. Overview has limitations and can be avoided.
Local cannot be avoided, as it never was designed to be an intel tool to begin with. But it is one, and it’s stopping interesting gameplay from happening.
If there was a small delay before players join local chat after jumping into system, those other tools become more valuable and more interesting gameplay could happen. And it would be possible to catch Ishtars that almost automatically dock up when someone enters system.
And you obviously ignored those that are in warp to a site and are slow to align. If you just want to throw the worst case scenario and suggest that it happens all the time, why should I bother replying to your post.
So when you talk about being lazy and ignore things, there you go, all in your post.
Ahhh you gave a decent example of one strategy to use, at least I can praise that.
I did not ignore that edge case, I just didn’t mention it. But you’re right, that could be a moment of vulnerability. And a vulnerability that good preparation could avoid:
Once upon a time I undocked my new Hulk in null sec for the first time, to mine ice. I made the mistake of warping directly to the ice belt and noticed too late that it was a 100 AU warp. I also warped my Porpoise after it.
Guess what, a hostile Ishkur enters system right that moment, sees my Hulk near the ice belt, lands on 0 right before my Hulk arrives and starts shooting me.
Luckily my Porpoise landed a little later, could barely keep the Hulk alive with reps until the combined drones chased the frigate off. It was a scary moment, but I learned that I shouldn’t warp directly to a site in a slow expensive ship if the site is far away. Warp to another celestial at range close to the site if you want to avoid that scenario.
But tell me, how often is a ship in warp to a new site compared to time it spends in the site? In my experience ships spend way more time in sites than they spend in warp to a new site. So is this edge case of vulnerability enough to keep local as it is? Unavoidable and easy intel?
But you do want it, you have over many years expressed the opinion that anyone who does not share your view of the game should leave. Whereas I feel Eve is made up of more than just players like you and is better for it. When you made the statement about a delay you wanted more destruction and to have more chance of catching someone, but the game can not take it. Your view is that that those players are not real Eve players.
I am sorry for being so direct with you, but this is just me stating very clearly on how I think you think. I am not doing this as an insult, or as aggression, I understand what you think and why, I just disagree with you for these reasons. So it may be rambling to you, but it is pretty clear from my side of the fence.
@Gerard_Amatin Good, and this type of thing happens a lot because most people become complacent, being a real hunter is setting up for that chance. If I have it handed to me on a plate then what is the point in doing it. And this was what Eve was to me. So by all means put a delay in local, perhaps put a 40 second align time on any ships that do PvE, sounds good, except it is not.
I remember ratting in belts and having the ones that point you and clearing them off with drones in a panic as people came in system and I had them on D-scan. So it is there of course, but people ignore it.
PS Edited for typos, sorry that the system keeps advising you when I edit out typing errors. I have been accused of doing this to annoy people but in fact I cannot abide leaving typing errors in my posts.
It’s fine, since you disagree whit what you think I’m thinking and not with what I’m actually thinking. For that you would have to actually understand what I said, but I don’t hold my breath of that ever happening here.
Oh it’s absolutely rambling and I believe that it makes sense to you.
I think I am talking to a wall too who can’t help but slip into forum warfare, you decided to say that I was categorising players, when I was not, I don’t even understand what your point was there:
I never said that and I certainly do not think that.
What!
This is what I agreed with and understood your point of view, however I could not agree with this:
Because in my opinion you would just cause most players to leave the game.
I wanted to explore the ideas of that more interesting play, which I have often thought about as perhaps a better way, but the block has always been big fleet fight lag. So I just mentioned the issues around that in terms of trying to adjust for people coming in via WH’s or even cyno’s It would be more interesting, but the lag issue hits all the time…
The problem here is that when I was suggesting ideas and issues you decided it was rambling, but I thought I was speaking to someone with an open mind to the issues. So rambling then. Is there anyone in this forum worth engaging with, discussing the issues of making this game work for as many people as possible rather then just misquotes and other such things.
I’d say there’s not many left due to being chased away by those who constantly fixate on a small sub-section of a post, take it out of context and then blow it out of proportion.
The idea of having better play around local with holes in it would add to the game, but the issue is always the lag fest fights that means you have to simplify server calls. Perhaps the best thing is to have a delay on those that enter by WH’s and by Cyno, but leave as is for gates. Still it pushes the balance further towards catch rather than evade and that balance was already shifted with the warp speed changes.
I look at this as the more people out in space the more chance you catch someone either not paying attention, in warp and slow to warp out or pointed by rats etc. I think if the game is setup to catch people no matter what they do then this is bad for the game and makes a mockery out of real hunting. If people are sure to be caught no matter what then they will stop doing it because they are likely not to be able to sustain that loss.
The question one would have to ask in the context of this is whether that should be a feature of scarcity in that you skewer the mechanics to force people to truly gang up to run even basic content.
I often had my characters two systems out from the Rorquels location and on several occasions jumped into a combat ship and went after the sabres. This content was fun, but I would suggest that you cannot make everything like that, it is just too much hassle.
Maybe I am wrong, but I think most players would get fed up waiting around for others to help them. Certainly was my experience in the past, especially when I was running only one character and wanted a scout for gate camps in Stain. I got a second account because in the end I needed to do that because I had to wait five hours for another person to log in. That is the reality of this game, most of the PvE content is for solo play.
So the question one comes to on this is more to do with the balance being right on this. I think it is good as it is. And I say that as someone who hunted and who ratted.
These observatory’s are not free lunches, they cost a lot and they have a 40% chance on each cycle, and they are easy to blow up and can do a limited number of cycles. People can use economic warfare against people using them, or go blow them up when deployed, instead they bleat about adding delay which is a weakness on their part in my opinion of course. They need to harden up and play against it.
From what I understand the Observatories were meant to supposedly combat AFK Cloaky Campers. Course as usual CCP missed hitting that mark and instead nerfed the hell out of Cloak and Nullification in one fell swoop.
Personally I don’t like any of the changes they made and yes, I feel they stacked the deck against my gameplay even more. For my Interceptor and T3 Cruiser to be nullified again, I have to burn a high slot for that which seriously gimps my fits and nerfs my gameplay. So I can understand why people are pissed about it.
As for Delayed Local, I say no to that. According to Lore, the Gates log the ship ID when jumping through which is why we show up in Local chat of that system. The reason for no local in W-hole space is because we’re not using Gates to get there.
Course on the flip side, I think players who enter K-space systems via w-hole or Cyno should not be listed in Local, simply because they didn’t access a Gate to get there.
I was thinking that the preferred way to do that was if they came within the D-scan range of a gate or structure that they would register in local. However I am well aware of the issues that this sort of server back and forth would cause. Which is why I suggested that a delayed local for people entering from WH’s and cyno’s would make the most sense. But it stays as is from gates…
The balance would shift towards the hunter a bit too much perhaps, but overall it would make the game more tactical.
The cloak thing was aimed at AFK play. If I went AFK I would log off. I wanted this big time and I think that the overall cost and limitations are enough to make it acceptable.
I think the nullification and warp core stab changes are really bad and disagree with them. Though as of yet I have not yet tried them in space, so my viewpoint is not yet fully formulated from my own experience. I was of a view that they were pretty much well balanced prior to this though. The nasty align time of T3C’s unless you fitted for it enabled them to be caught by competent people.
It is a pleasure to exchange like this with different viewpoints with respect, we do have a difference of opinion but we can both accept that.
I have still not yet re-subbed, the observatory’s remove when of my biggest irritations and as such was a major reason why I contemplated re-subbing, that I could hunt AFK cloakers as an option was a major plus point as I was looking to dabble in NPC nullsec again.
While this would make sense from a lore point of view, I think this is much much worse than a small delay before people join local chat.
Example:
Single bomber jumps into system, lights covert cyno.
100 bombers jump to cyno.
Local see one hostile name in system and on d-scan, yet the entire system is full of invisible hostile bombers that aren’t visible in local.
Hostile in-cyno leaves system, making it appear as if it’s safe to go out and rat.
Example2:
Plant mobile covert cyno (is going to be introduced soon)
Leave system
100 bombers jump to covert cyno.
No hostiles appear to be in local, even though the entire system has multiple bombers on every site and asteroid belt
Delay on those that enter by WH and by cyno is not a good idea and too easily abused.
I much prefer a simple 30 second delay before people join local chat (lore reason?: information about joining chat channels may travel much faster than speed of light, but is still not instantaneous) that allows hunters to surprise locals that aren’t paying attention to what’s happening next door and aren’t paying attention to their d-scan.
I don’t think what I am suggesting is any different in terms of effect and I was thinking about a ten second delay for WH’s and cyno’s but gates stay as is. Personally that is as far as I would go other wise the chances of surviving are remote to non-existent .
30 seconds will guarantee that even the worst hunter will kill stuff.
PS I should have said 10 seconds in my previous post, my bad.
