Delay Local

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Mingja

I most certainly do not, nope.

A PvP fit is designed to engage in PvP.
A PvE fit is not.
It is rational the PvP fit should wreck the PvE fit.

@Mingja

I just don’t feel that a change that positively impacts the hunter while negatively affecting the prey is a good change.

Thats because you are taking your advantage as granted, even without taking full precautions.

I dont think you understand how difficult it currently is for hunters, vs how easy it is for you (even when you arent taking full precautions).

I dont blame you for thinking that way, and seeing that as “normal”, and in your own interest/Agenda, but I dont think you are understanding the flipside of instant Local intel to hunters.

Its very good for you, very bad for hunters.

Delayed Local intel means both still get it, but on a more equal footing.

@Mingja

Just that I will have less time for it, making it easier for you.

Doesnt change your warp off time at all.
Your awareness of interlopers, so as to warp, will have to rely on something other than Local intel, until the delay expires.
And the hunter post-change will have to take time ascertaining if there is anyone to hunt in the system, let alone if there might be a defense force already in space.

@Mingja

But such a change would be a bad one for the game.

I agree. And thats why I never said that should be the case.
Thats a red herring.

@Mingja

What other metric do we have?

Generally speaking, a PvE fit ship should lose to a PvP fit ship.

Do you agree?

[Mingja]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Thats because you are taking your advantage as granted, even without taking full precautions.

I dont think you understand how difficult it currently is for hunters, vs how easy it is for you (even when you arent taking full precautions).

Oh, I do know that it’s impossible to catch small ships without them making mistakes. When you do catch them, they are toast. I just believe it’s the way it’s meant to be.

@Salvos_Rhoska

I dont blame you for thinking that way, and seeing that as “normal”, and in your own interest/Agenda, but I dont think you are understanding the flipside of instant Local intel to hunters.

the flipside would be more people dying to hunters / Hunters having an easier time. I don’t think that’s necessary and I don’t think that would be fair, cause:

@Salvos_Rhoska

a PvE fit ship should lose to a PvP fit ship.

this is how the game is and I believe that’s enough of an advantage. Again, there always needs to be a valid way to escape.

[Kobran_Ruthless_Vaidrich]

The other problem with delayed local is how are you ever meant to catch enemies hunting in your pocket because you can’t find out where they went. Delayed information is useless for reactive play. So you destroy all reactive game-play and everything becomes preemptive with this garbage idea.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Mingja

Oh, I do know that it’s impossible to catch small ships without them making mistakes.

The larger the ship, the more vulnerable it should be.

I dont like this whole “mistake” concept.
PvP always involves “mistakes”.

A PvPer engaging a PvEr should not have to fly a “perfect” engagement, and then rely on the PvEr to make a “mistake”, inorder to be successful.

In a PvPer vs a PvEr (regarding fits/skill etc), the PvPer should have a strong advantage.

As you point out, a large part of the PvErs defense, is avoiding PvPers.
Second is fits to tank harder, or get out faster.
Third is having support available nearby and that can quickly react.
Fourth, is intel.

Hunters, on their part, also have to prepare and take precautions to deal with those four elements of defense, in their own way.

Post-change to Delayed Local, both sides will have to more work to get their intel, so as to achieve either their PvP or PvE goals,

@Mingja

the flipside would be more people dying to hunters

Yes, but only those that are PvEing without due precautions in place.
Not all hunters are pros either.
Hunters also frequently make mistakes.

@Mingja

Again, there always needs to be a valid way to escape.

I dont see that a delayed Local impairs that.

Both hunters and prey will simply have to more actively, and deliberately sniff out the space they are in, with means available to both respectively, until the delay expires and Local intel is updated for both, simultaneously.

In other words, delayed Local intel does not change the PvP vs PvE paradigm, except that both sides have to actively get the intel that immediate Local intel currently provides, with means they have available to them, until the delay expires for both interloper and locals, simultaneously.

See what I mean?

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Kobran_Ruthless_Vaidrich

Delayed information is useless for reactive play.

Preemptive play would involve actively generating intel.

Immediate Local intel, is itself a mechanic that enables “pre-emptive” play, because you can know they are coming before the enemies even enter grid/system.

Reactive play would mean either scouting the pipes to find out where the gang/aggressor went, or locals in neighboring systems running their own intel, by watching gates, d-scanning or reporting the enemies when they popup on Delayed Local intel when they stay in a system past the delays expiration.

[Mingja]

@Salvos_Rhoska

The larger the ship, the more vulnerable it should be.

I dont like this whole “mistake” concept.

PvP always involves “mistakes”.

A PvPer engaging a PvEr should not have to fly a “perfect” engagement, and then rely on the PvEr to make a “mistake”, inorder to be successful.

In a PvPer vs a PvEr (regarding fits/skill etc), the PvPer should have a strong advantage.

As you point out, a large part of the PvErs defense, is avoiding PvPers.

Second is fits to tank harder, or get out faster.

Third is having support available nearby and that can quickly react.

Fourth, is intel.

Hunters, on their part, also have to prepare and take precautions to deal with those four elements of defense, in their own way.

I agree with this, just that the larger the ship, the more vulnerable it should be is only partially true. In reality is: the bigger the ship, the more vulnerable to being tackled it is, but the harder to kill it becomes. That’s why I really agree with Supers being too good atm.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Post-change to Delayed Local, both sides will have to more work to get their intel, so as to achieve either their PvP or PvE goals,

This is not completely true though. Opening the Map and looking for military 5 is not particular hard. While I agree that it might be a pain for empty systems (and might cause some annoyances), it’s definately not as impactful for the hunter as it is for the prey.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Yes, but only those that are PvEing without due precautions in place.

Not all hunters are pros either.

Hunters also frequently make mistakes.

That only reinforces my point though. Hunters will benefit in some ways and suffer from it in other ways. PvE’ers can only suffer. In general, I think it would make actual PvP harder too

(the PvP vs PvP and not the PvP vs PvE), especially for small gangs.

@Salvos_Rhoska

I dont see that a delayed Local impairs that.

Well, you already answered this yourself: it will ask more from PvE Guys.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Both hunters and prey will simply have to more actively, and deliberately sniff out the space they are in, with means available to both respectively, until the delay expires and Local intel is updated for both, simultaneously.

That would only be true if the sites would at least be delayed as well. Otherwise: warp there first, Dscan on the fly => Significant advantage.

@Salvos_Rhoska

In other words, delayed Local intel does not change the PvP vs PvE paradigm

Happy to disagree on that. It does and maybe, just maybe you consider actually doing some PvE for a while in 0.0 now.

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

In other words, delayed Local intel does not change the PvP vs PvE paradigm

And this statement is utterly false and incorrect.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Mingja

Well, you already answered this yourself: it will ask more from PvE Guys.

Be honest.

List for us how many precautions you currently take when PvEing.
Please be as specific as possible.

@Mingja

Otherwise: warp there first, Dscan on the fly => Significant advantage.

Hunters already do that to ascertain where targets are. Its a universal and necessary tactic.

Delayed Local doesnt change that, except to handicap hunters reciprocally, as they dont know if there even is any potential prey in the system.

@Mingja

Happy to disagree on that.

It doesnt change the PvP vs PvE paradigm.
It only means both sides have to more actively generate intel, with means available to them, before the delay expires and all are revealed in Local intel.

It changes the availability of immediate Local intel, for everyone there.
Nothing else.

[Mingja]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Be honest.

List for us how many precautions you currently take when PvEing.

Please be as specific as possible.

• Actively participating on Intel (calling neuts, watching intel etc.)
• Playing actively (and not Semi-AFK, no netflix, no TV, nothing else)
• Warpout when hostiles come reasonably close
• Deactivating Industrial core when neutrals are 8-10 jumps out (depends ofcourse) and preparing to refit/reship
• Staying aligned all the time when possible
• Active on Coms
• PvP Ships ready to dock off in system, HD ships are 2j out.
• No undocking with PvE-ships when unknown sigs in system
• Closing Wormholes actively
• Actively defending the space when necessary through fleet participation

@Salvos_Rhoska

Hunters already do that to ascertain where targets are. Its a universal and necessary tactic.

Yes, and it does NOT rely on Local. That’s the entire problem. Hunters don’t need local as much as PvE’ers do. it’s simply not as important to them.

@Salvos_Rhoska

It doesnt change the PvP vs PvE paradigm.

Again, happy to disagree on that. For hunters, it has benefits (mainly: target not aware of their presence). For PvE’ers, it does not have a single advantage.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Your list of precautions is good, albeit missing a few (which you dont need thanks to immediate Local intel).

When you use those precautions you listed, you make it very difficult for even a pro hunter to engage you successfully.

None of those would be adversely affected by Delayed Local.

How many times have you lost a ship to PvP while PvEing with those precautions in place?

@Mingja

Hunters don’t need local as much as PvE’ers do. it’s simply not as important to them.

Its important to hunters, but for different reasons than you.

@Mingja

For hunters, it has benefits (mainly: target not aware of their presence). For PvE’ers, it does not have a single advantage.

You are confusing intel with PvPer vs PvEer engagement.

With delayed Local, a hunter entering the system will be no more aware of your presence, than you will be of theirs.

Both sides will have to use active intel collection methods to ascertain the presence of others in the system, until the delay expires.

[Mingja]

@Salvos_Rhoska

With delayed Local, a hunter entering the system will be no more aware of your presence, than you will be of theirs.

A hunter will still be able to warp through the dominant PvE-Sites. In low truesec, that is 4-8 sites. An inti can check 2-4 of them in 30 seconds, while the target can and will likely be completely unaware of his presence.

Further amplified by the fact that an inti can cross a lot of systems in less than 30 seconds, so

there might not be prior intel either.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Its important to hunters, but for a different reason than you.

That’s not the point. The point is the impact. Yes, Local is obviously important to the hunter too, just not AS important. You can circle around that argument all day long without that ever changing.

[Dracvlad]

Well I was wondering what happens if a ship warps from one side of the system to another and leaves the system within the 30 seconds, which is very possible, I mean the system I operate in is pretty large and they can cross that in less than 30 seconds in an interceptor.

Is local going to report them when they are no longer in system? This is going to get utterly stupid.

@Salvos_Rhoska

In other words, delayed Local intel does not change the PvP vs PvE paradigm

Quoting again because it has been proved to be false.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Are you saying you will be unable to PvE with delayed Local in place?

More like why would anyone bother, if people want to make it so easy so that hunting is like taking candy from babies.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Lol that you are trying to get response from me, after you deliberately ignoring my questions and treating me as you have in other threads.

You made your choice. Stick to it.

I am not talking to you troll, your brain might not have picked up that I was quoting you and not actually replying to you.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Mingja

A hunter will still be able to warp through the dominant PvE-Sites.

Thats what they are doing now already.
Delayed local does not change that.

@Mingja

Further amplified by the fact that an inti can cross a lot of systems in less than 30 seconds, so there might not be prior intel either.

Thats up to how well hunters gather intel and how well you gather intel, until the Local delay expires.

@Mingja

Yes, Local is obviously important to the hunter too, just not AS important.

Are you saying you will be unable to PvE with delayed Local in place?

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Dracvlad

…

Lol that you are trying to get response from me, after you deliberately ignoring my questions and treating me as you have in other threads.

You made your choice. Stick to it.

[Mingja]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Thats what they are doing now already.

Delayed local does not change that.

Finally, you admited the crucial point. It does not change anything at all for Hunters, while it changes at least half of the systems PvE’ers use to stay save. In other words: the hunter doesn’t NEED local intel to get kills, it’s just a convenience tool for him.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Are you saying you will be unable to PvE with delayed Local in place?

I didn’t say that, nope. Read again please. What I’ve said all along is quite clear.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Mingja

In other words: the hunter doesn’t NEED local intel to get kills, it’s just a convenience tool for him.

PvErs dont NEED local intel to avoid/defeat PvPers either.
Its just a convenience for you.

Your list of precautions clearly demonstrates that.
Those are more than adequate to prevent being successfully engaged by a PvPer.

@Mingja

I didn’t say that, nope.

How many PvE ships have you lost, with current immediate Local intel, and the precautions in place you listed above?

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

In other words, delayed Local intel does not change the PvP vs PvE paradigm

This has been proved false time and time again in this thread and yet Salvos keeps quoting it as if it is fact. Go figure…

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Dracvlad

Go figure…

Stow your anger.
You made your choices, now live with them.

[Mingja]

@Salvos_Rhoska

PvErs dont NEED local intel to avoid/defeat PvPers either.

Yes, they do. If you need examples: try to imagine login traps, wormholes and cloakies. Rorquals absolutely need intel (and the only reliable intel tool is the local).

@Salvos_Rhoska

How many PvE ships have you lost, with current immediate Local intel, and the precautions in place you listed above?

0 in the last 4 months (had a 2 year hiatus before that). Very few during actual PvE and I can say that without intel, i would have lost a lot more. Cause the points I’ve listed are mostly irrelevant to avoiding a fight without local (as you know ).

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Mingja

Yes, they do.

No, they dont.

@Mingja

If you need examples: try to imagine login traps, wormholes and cloakies.

Immediate Local intel wont help against login traps. Its already too late at that point.
Wormholes are wormholes. You dont need immediate Local intel to deal with them.
Cloakies you are right about. They should not be d-scan immune, even now.

@Mingja

Rorquals absolutely need intel (and the only reliable intel tool is the local).

Idgaf about the specific “gimmes” of Rorquals.
No Rorq should be flying without support, anywhere, ever.

@Mingja

Very few during actual PvE and I can say that without intel, i would have lost a lot more.

Thanks.
That shows how much immediate Local intel is in your favor, additionally to the other precautions you take, which already make it very difficult for a PvPer to aggress you while you are PvEing.