Delay Local

[Loki_Orkund]

@Mingja

but you don’t wanna hear conflicting oppinions (i.e. my oppinion on it) and you don’t take them into consideration.

I’ve already said that your wish for ultra safe PvEing is a “legitimate” opinion and that I might agree with you in another game.

I see no point in taking into consideration something that breaches one of the core principles of Eve.

On top of that, you absolutely ignore the “effort” in it, which is part of the design of 0.0 too. I consider that to be not fair and detrimental to the discussion.

Again no, because the effort is minimal compared to scanning and rolling WHs.

I’ve said there always needs to be a way to avoid a fight, not that you should have an insta-teleport back to the station once someone looks at you the wrong way.

What is the difference?

Local, at the moment, provides the opportunity to escape for ships that can warp out in time and for pilots that put in the attention and it is not a 100% sure thing that your ship will survive.

It IS a 100% sure thing if you’re paying attention, not in siege mode and not ratting on the first/only belt with an overprop VNI.

But you already have a significant chance of dying in 0.0 as prooven by empyrical evidence.

No such evidence has been forthcoming. Also, dying because you’re AFK ratting or a noob isn’t quite what we’re measuring.

“perfectly and inherently safe”

Never said it. Said inherently safe. Said ultra-safe.

Ofc, you could say that “bro, you can’t count it like that” and you could argue that “effort put in” should not be a balancing factor for the numbers, but the reality of the situation is: if you want to nerf nullsec because it provides too much isk (because isk is and should always be related to the risk) or because it is too safe, then you not only have to nerf all the other spaces as well (or make them more risky), you would also have to completely ignore one of the other core principles in eve aswell (“Effort”).

If something is entertaining, it shouldn’t count as effort. A lot of people find fighting wars entertaining. Scanning WHs is not.

Can you validate your 100 hours? It sounds ridiculously high.

Going back to my reply, what I said was that the equation is too generous because I didn’t account for multiboxing.

[Dracvlad]

@Loki_Orkund

There’s no such thing in PvE, only PvP. In PvE, you’ll get 15s warning of any cyno, 25s of them scanning down and warping to you.

In my remake, you still get 40+s. Since when is that instant?

So a NO!

As for the rest of the verbal garbage you posted,

[Teckos_Pech]

@Loki_Orkund

Again no, because the effort is minimal compared to scanning and rolling WHs.

Hahaha. This is funny. No effort setting up TCUs or IHubs, or citadels, jump bridges, fueling structures chasing off roaming gangs is no effort. All the effort people put into having doctrine ships on contract. Bringing in stuff from HS. Sending stuff to HS. The reason Delve is such an economic powerhouse is due too effort. Even effort on keeping it safe.

@Loki_Orkund

If something is entertaining, it shouldn’t count as effort.

Translation: It isn’t 100%.

Lots of words to say that.

@Loki_Orkund

If something is entertaining, it shouldn’t count as effort. A lot of people find fighting wars entertaining. Scanning WHs is not.

Soooo…if you find your job entertaining you shouldn’t get paid? In fact, since it is entertainment you should pay your employer. Or the guy who enjoys running, he put forth no effort while running a 10k race? How about a person who likes cooking? Was the several hours of effort in the kitchen yesterday afternoon/evening not effort? This is specious nonsense.

[Solstice_Projekt]

So after you ran away from Discord, because we had enough of you constantly hogging all the attention, you are back here doing the same ■■■■ you did there? You are the one who posts garbage. You are just too ■■■■■■■ full of yourself to see it!

People do not want you around FOR A REASON, how about you start seeing that reason where it originates?

IN YOU!

[Dracvlad]

@Solstice_Projekt

So after you ran away from Discord, because we had enough of you constantly hogging all the attention, you are back here doing the same ■■■■ you did there? You are the one who posts garbage. You are just too ■■■■■■■ full of yourself to see it!

People do not want you around FOR A REASON, how about you start seeing that reason where it originates?

IN YOU!

Quoting for amusement.

PS I was wondering how long it would be before you went for a direct forum attack, I had three days max, and you did not disappoint.

@Solstice_Projekt

You are just as bad as the rest of the cancer around here.

Thank you for proving my point. Time and time again you ruin it when you are around other people and time and time again you get the chance to come back, only to fall into the same pit again and again. You are just incapable of self reflection and learning, I guess, but this can and will be dealt with.

Additional fun material…, with a threat at the end, how sweet.

@Solstice_Projekt

Dude, shut the hell up with the ■■■■■■■■. You can not possibly save your image or the sad bit of reputation you have among those who matter. You should save the last bit of dignity you have left and retreat into your safe space among all these other cancerous white knights who are just like you.

You make every place you are around a ■■■■■■■ mess. It is not pleasant talking to you, because you can not deal with people telling you that your ideas are bad. You can not somehow magically turn this around, it is not ME who behaves like a ■■■■■■■ cancer everywhere he is around…

@Solstice_Projekt

You are so ■■■■■■■ out of your mind, man, go seek professional help.

What can I say…, keep supplying the material mate.

PPS I should remind you that this is way off topic

[Solstice_Projekt]

You are just as bad as the rest of the cancer around here.

Thank you for proving my point. Time and time again you ruin it when you are around other people and time and time again you get the chance to come back, only to fall into the same pit again and again. You are just incapable of self reflection and learning, I guess, but this can and will be dealt with.

[Solstice_Projekt]

@Dracvlad

PS I was wondering how long it would be before you went for a direct forum attack, I had three days max, and you did not disappoint.

Dude, shut the hell up with the ■■■■■■■■. You can not possibly save your image or the sad bit of reputation you have among those who matter. You should save the last bit of dignity you have left and retreat into your safe space among all these other cancerous white knights who are just like you.

You make every place you are around a ■■■■■■■ mess. It is not pleasant talking to you, because you can not deal with people telling you that your ideas are bad. You can not somehow magically turn this around, it is not ME who behaves like a ■■■■■■■ cancer everywhere he is around…

@Dracvlad

Additional fun material…, with a threat at the end, how sweet.

You are so ■■■■■■■ out of your mind, man, go seek professional help.

[Dom_Arkaral]

did he really? lol

[Solstice_Projekt]

Well, he left and managed to blame us for it.

What else would you expect from a guy like this?

[Dom_Arkaral]

send screenies please

[Solstice_Projekt]

Take care of that yourself. He left plenty of his garbage in discord.

[Loki_Orkund]

@Dracvlad

@Loki_Orkund

There’s no such thing in PvE, only PvP. In PvE, you’ll get 15s warning of any cyno, 25s of them scanning down and warping to you.

In my remake, you still get 40+s. Since when is that instant?

So a NO!

Wrong again. My PvP alt got hotdropped in Kor-Azor by two Megathrons and a Guardian.

But nice dodging of the 40+s warning you always get.

As for the rest of the verbal garbage you posted,

Personal attacks don’t always indicate you lost the argument. But they often do.

[March_rabbit]

@Loki_Orkund

My PvP alt got hotdropped in Kor-Azor by two Megathrons and a Guardian.

But nice dodging of the 40+s warning you always get.

How did you manage to miss 40+ seconds warning and got yourself hotdropped?

[March_rabbit]

Well… That’s serious dedication!

[Loki_Orkund]

@March_rabbit

How did you manage to miss 40+ seconds warning and got yourself hotdropped?

Attacking a battleship we didn’t know had a cyno on it.

[Dracvlad]

@Loki_Orkund

Attacking a battleship we didn’t know had a cyno on it.

@Loki_Orkund

Wrong again. My PvP alt got hotdropped in Kor-Azor by two Megathrons and a Guardian.

So you must have red boxed them to get dropped on, hardly instant…

@Loki_Orkund

But nice dodging of the 40+s warning you always get.

I have no idea what this means? It is not a 40 second warning, you have a warning when he activates the gate to enter system, so if you think this is 40 seconds no wonder you fail. Also you are likely to be in the wrong ship. Ahhhhh, 40 seconds to get out which you think is 40 seconds warning, face palm…

@Loki_Orkund

There’s no such thing in PvE, only PvP. In PvE, you’ll get 15s warning of any cyno, 25s of them scanning down and warping to you.

In my remake, you still get 40+s. Since when is that instant?

That does not make sense either, but now I worked out that it is time to get on them with your hunting approach. You are getting your probes out and trying to scan them down instead of being in a ceptor and taking a chance on which anom he is in, or better still worked it out with a fly by. See your fail…, I could explain how to probe more effectively, but I think it would be wasted on you. There is a PL hunter called Alcyonia who knows how to do this very well. Has a very good appreciation of the solar systems and how to use probes most effectively, I am giving you some clues here.

@Loki_Orkund

Personal attacks don’t always indicate you lost the argument. But they often do.

What you posted was verbal garbage, are you perhaps @Solstice_Projekt, you have his lack of logic and salty posting abilities.

Still sounds like you need to get better at how you condition your prey and your approach if you are probing them down. So all in all I just think that you are not an especially effective hunter.

[Mingja]

@Loki_Orkund

I see no point in taking into consideration something that breaches one of the core principles of Eve.

and then again, we still have to discuss which core principle decently safe PvE violates, cause no: we haven’t found common ground on it, like: at all.

Your stance still is: “it’s perfectly safe” when it isn’t.

@Loki_Orkund

Again no, because the effort is minimal compared to scanning and rolling WHs.

The efforts to roll some WH’s for some hours of relative peace is a different effort from having Alts and people in all Systems accross numerous constellations. Manpower wise, 0.0 needs more Chars cause WH’s only need one per WH after scanning is done.

@Loki_Orkund

What is the difference?

the difference is quite obvious. An instant teleport to the station by the system would guarantee your safety aslong as the station doesn’t get toasted. Current situation is: you have to pay attention, you have to be on the ball to warp out without loosing stuff (cause a set of drones is also a loss).

@Loki_Orkund

It IS a 100% sure thing if you’re paying attention, not in siege mode and not ratting on the first/only belt with an overprop VNI.

How can it be 100% when you have to throw a lot of exceptions to it? Hint: it’s not 100%.

@Loki_Orkund

No such evidence has been forthcoming. Also, dying because you’re AFK ratting or a noob isn’t quite what we’re measuring.

The evidence is all around the killboards you can use. People still die in 0.0 and while I might agree with “stupid or AFK” if you are flying a VNI, I can’t let it count for anything above a cruiser sized. Not that it all matters: aslong as people die in the space it simply can’t be perfectly safe.

@Loki_Orkund

Never said it. Said inherently safe. Said ultra-safe.

You’ve said 100% safe. That is, by definition, perfect.

@Loki_Orkund

If something is entertaining, it shouldn’t count as effort. A lot of people find fighting wars entertaining.

it doesn’t matter if you find it fun or not. Doing something for your personal safety and doing something that is a pre-requisite still is an effort.

@Loki_Orkund

Can you validate your 100 hours? It sounds ridiculously high.

Here is proof for 86: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sLrJXbLpw8cFFXvKXqrKMRJ851g9cu87/view?usp=sharing

Fatlinks are worth one hour and that doesn’t account for all the extra time spent on it with travel, and the extra time we don’t get fats for, so yeah. Draw your conclusions.

That ofc doesn’t account for the hours were I had to dock up to not lose my ship. It doesn’t account for all the ad-hoc home defenses that usually don’t yield a fat etc. etc.

@Loki_Orkund

Going back to my reply, what I said was that the equation is too generous because I didn’t account for multiboxing.

But Multiboxing breaks every single space in terms of rewards. It doesn’t matter if you multibox in High, Null or WH’s => you will still get a better benefit. How is this a null-only problem when High, Null and WH’s are broken risk/reward wise according to your very own thought process?

Aaaannd it’s the same for Lowsec too. Cherry picking the proper Lv’5s to chain blitz them in a row is broken reward wise, yet it still exists because people don’t really do it because there is no infrastructure build by lowsec inhabitants across lowsec to allow for it without worrying too much all the time.

Lowsec could be as safe as nullsec, just that people there refuse to build the infrastructure necessary for that. They don’t have reliable intel, they don’t have coalitions, they don’t have mutual agreeements for their safety. The worst part ist: they would have it a lot easier than 0.0 entities because they would not have to deal with the logistical nightmare that is the far away 0.0.

They also wouldn’t have to mess with timers as they can use stations in nearby highsec and even if they have structures around, they would still be relatively local which again means there is less logistic involved.

So, while 0.0 is decently safe to use for PvE, it doesn’t come by design. It comes by effort.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Mingja

Manpower wise, 0.0 needs more Chars cause WH’s only need one per WH after scanning is done.

Pfft.
Manpower wise, Player NS only needs one character per system to watch Local, which they can do from anywhere in the system, with zero effort, including from inside structures.

[Mingja]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Pfft.

Manpower wise, Player NS only needs one character per system to watch Local, which they can do from anywhere in the system, with zero effort, including from inside structures.

and how many chars does the average WH need to sit on spawned holes in cloaky alts? The answer is: not as many. It can all be done by one person with an easily managable amount of Alts.

Now, try to do that with 20, 30 or 40 chars as a single person. Have fun! Don’t get me wrong, you need to scan in wormholes and that is a different effort, but all in all, the manpower you need is higher in 0.0 if you want a decently save space for anything that is not a VNI.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Mingja

how many chars does the average WH need to sit on gates in cloaky alts?

None, There are no gates in WHs.

In Player NS, you dont need a cloaky alt on any gate.
Immediate Local intel means you know when someone enters the system, no matter where you are, and for zero effort.

@Mingja

It can all be done by one person with an easily managable amount of Alts.

It only requires one person to watch Local in a Player NS system.
You can also do that from within the safety of a structure.