Dev blog: Moon mining revamped - There’s Ore in Them Thar Moons


(Rivr Luzade) #401

It is easy to see when someone starts mining in a system because the system info window tells you. The lower the index is, the faster you notice it. The slight delay when the green arrow appears is negligible because it takes hours to clear the belts. This is, however, the cumbersome approach. I am convinced there are tools to monitor something like index changes and activity in a system.
And again, your assumption is only valid for the first time encounter/search. Every subsequent timer and evaluation of target suitability is based on the information gathered (easily gathered) on the first raid. During that first raid, you can scan the moons to find out which minerals it holds, you know who mines, you know what they would like to bring in subsequent attempts and so on.

You make it look like a massive endeavor when in fact it’s only the first encounter that requires an elevated effort to figure out the most important facts. Everything after this initial rush is easy to figure out and to monitor.

(Querns) #402

For mining, no, there’s not. Development indexes aren’t available via API. (I wish they were – it’d make some of the tracking we do a lot easier.)

The point here is that it requires manual effort to discern.

(Rivr Luzade) #403

Even in that case it’s not inhumane amounts of work. Constellation info windows tell you the same index changes at a glance and, sadly, flying around and finding Refineries with the dscan is not hard work, neither is checking systems where suddenly 10+ people appear in space. As said, the initial work is hard, but that was also the case with towers and moon goo in the past. Nowadays, however, this consolidation period will be a lot quicker simply because a lot more value is at stack that you can kill instantly and not just after 2 days of waiting. Making people believe otherwise is just devious window dressing.

(Querns) #404

So are you volunteering to personally look at every constellation in sov nullsec, every day, for up to a month?

(Coralas) #405

Rorq mining is stuck with the mineral basket of the whole anom, they can’t just snipe ABCs, or it won’t respawn as far as I understood it.

NPC null doesn’t have farmable anoms, and the vast majority of syndicate for example is terrible truesec, which means no ABCD or M, which makes me think its unlikely that a surfeit of 1 mineral from a moon will fix anything. I’ve built 4 battlecruisers, a noctis and a cruiser, and all my ammo for ratting hybrids out of loot melt, which builds up just as fast as I’d mine it with a proc and comes with bounties and salvage.

I did try farming syndicate belts like that, but imo it was not effective (it can replace vexors perfectly well, but beyond that its getting to be hard work), so like anyone that wanted to make any real money or build anything, I wound up using our cloud ring sov system where we get repeatable anoms.

At the current server pop, there just isn’t any reason any moderate sized group wouldn’t repeatedly just push on a single sov system till they’d taken irt (yay fozzie sov).

The way I read it, its going to be minerals and goo in the 1 ore.

(Rivr Luzade) #406

No, not every. The constellations that are within striking range or through a wormhole. There is no need for me to look at the entire haystack, likewise am I not the only person doing this.
To stick to your group as an example: You could use your ganking alts in high sec and asign them promising constellations to monitor in sov null during their 15 minute criminal timer. Or the hundreds of AFK VNIshtar ratters can do that every now and then during the day when they rat. Just 2 example, and the last one would make these people at least a little bit more worth keeping than they are now.

(Querns) #407

A wormhole? Wormholes only last for 48 hours. It can be up to a month before a moongoo belt pops.

(Rivr Luzade) #408

Yet you find refineries through the wormholes, you can scan moons that are far away from your home or find ships already mining a field and can take notes. You know, little things that really quickly form a big picture of relatively easy to monitor information.

(Querns) #409

Until the schedule is changed.

(Zetakya) #410

[quote=“zluq_zabaa, post:400, topic:10954, full:true”]
4) Currently you get 100 Units of Moongoo per hourly cycle and the entire things is so perfectly plannable, that you can break down every T2 product into Pos cycles. It will be interesting to see if the amount of Goo through Ore will be equally plannable and about the same amount of Goo per fracking hour as now with MHAs.[/quote]

My working assumption is that the average available Goo will be broadly the same over a given timescale. CCP have given no indication that they are dissatisfied with the overall availability of Tech 2 Ships, only the process by which the Goo is mined.

I think we are looking at more capital investment, but lower running costs. But that’s just an assumption, I don’t have anything to back it up other than a general understanding of the numbers for Citadels & ECs vs. Towers.

(Zetakya) #411

That’s true, but missing my point. If a fracking spawned Ore Field has Ores that can’t be mined by a Rorqual (either due to a hard-coded limitation like Mercoxit, or a practical limitation like the size of the rock), then the efficiency metrics will enforce a different meta.

For example, let’s assume a Frackfield (to coin a term) has 10 Moon Goo Roids of a size that’s under 50% of a Rorqual’s yield in one cycle. Unless the Goo Ore is worth double what Arkonor is, it’s less ISK/hour for the Rorqual pilot because he wastes time cycled up with nothing to mine (actually it’s worse than that due to travel time, but w/e).

In that situation the efficiency of the situation would naturally gravitate to Hulks mining Goo 'Roids with Rorquals simply providing Boosts and possibly mining any lesser junk in the Frackfield to keep themselves occupied.

We’ve currently no reliable information on what regular Ores will be in which Moons, but the second Dev Blog did include an image of a Moon that had been scanned and Contained Arkonor - in LowSec. So at the very least the hard limits on Security Status for ore presence are relaxed.

That will be the case, but there will also be regular Ore appearing in the Frackfield, according to the second Dev Blog.

They’ve not mentioned Ice though.

(Dinsdale Pirannha) #412

Another thing not mentioned specifically in this new dev blog, but which is a certainty.

There is no way the null sec cartels negotiated these supposed annoyances to their existing logistical systems without significant concessions by CCP in the AMOUNT of minerals that null sec will be given.

Rest assured, when this is all done, any bottlenecks in low end ore mining efficiency, from null’s prespective, that may existed in the game will be gone.
Null sec will see that all those minerals that they could not cost justify mining in null sec compared to importing them from high sec will now be available in a more equal and abundant distribution in their backyards.

Many years ago the dev who came from Pandemic Legion promised on the forums that no region of space would ever be self-sufficient, and high sec would always be a necessary part of the economic engine when it came to resource extraction.

That was a lie.

(Sootsia) #413

Tinfoil aside, these “null sec cartels” are in no way IMHO, able at present, able to bring CCP to the table. NOR are they important enough long term to EvE in CCP’s vision of what is to come to require any type of negotiation at present “in the AMOUNT of minerals that null sec will be given.”

I do however NOT agree that there is any bottlenecks in low end ore mining efficiency, from null’s perspective, simply a LACK of desire to mine the lower end ores given that the current time/isk ratio of mining the NS ores is currently outweighs the extra cost of importation of the LS and HS ores. This thus provides the HS and LS miners jobs they otherwise would not have (demand for their ores) as well as the Logistical Pilots that make the freighter/ JF runs as well as opportunities for the PVP content of shooting fish in a barrel that cannot shoot back.

Your mention of a dev, whom came from Pandemic Legion, thus inferring a continued loyalty to that Null Sec Alliance, is a means of supporting a theory that CCP gives concessions to ANY Null Sec group.

Since Phobe, WH space became much closer to being self sufficient with the advent of Ice fields in the shattered WH systems, much like the new mining meta, it is NOT without risk. That RISK, is a major factor in deriving content, the Reward or ISK vs the RISK vs Content is what is going to drive a lot of the smaller (non blob) content that many pvpers are desiring in the ability of more roams in search of that content without blueballs. The new mining meta simply magnifies that!.

YES there will be great ISK to be generated, Yes, there will be content to be had. It will require smarter players, more intel gathering. It will require players to work more cohesively as a team, both to gather that ISK, and to counter it. Denying larger blocs of their goo, will in-fact become a more powerful tactic as those whom wish to understand the mechanics of the drilling process realize that over a 2-3 day period of engagements results in a 7-30 day loss of production. Whereas in the past, the previous moon owner simply lost up to 2 days production before re-stronting the pos and defending it, or recapturing/replacing it afterwords.

To those whom wondered if you could place another citadel in range to defend it with the defenses of the citadel, the answer is no, the mechanics dictate at least 1000 km range of another structure, and or a celestial object.

The META of mining is changing. The META of EvE HAS changed. It is up to us as players to use the tools that we have been given to maximize OUR individual vision within the constructs of the mechanics of the sandbox to achieve our goals. How you the player adapt is up to you, crying about it will not change the META, although I so appreciate their salty deliciousness.



Preparing for the ever changing future, Stop by in our pub HISCB Pub for details

(Alessienne Ellecon) #414

@Querns: You don’t depend on moongoo anymore? Is that because you’ve been hoarding it since before B-R and at one point had enough to crash the lunar market if it were sold all at once? If so, you’ll never get rid of that goo at a decent price once the first refineries come online, so if I were Mittens I’d load up the JFs and get shipping. Oh, that’s right, Mittens doesn’t do jack for the ‘Imperium’ any more after he let the blue donut collapse.

Honestly, EVE goons spend way too much time sitting around circlejerking. I don’t expect you to start a war, but I expect you to at least seize an opportunity when it’s presented to you.

Re ninja mining: If you’re willing to constantly monitor movement around a given refinery, and you’re OK with tooling around in a Prospect (not that there’s anything wrong with that, Prospect best mining frigate), you could probably get away with some semblance of ninja mining; It’s more plausible than the hardened nullbears would like you to think. The only problem would be finding a refinery corp sloppy enough with security to leave their moon chunk remnants laying around. Alternatively, you could bring an ewar fleet and keep the defenders busy while you brazenly eat the moon chunk right in front of them. Next time, on When Carebears Go Bad… :grin:

(Querns) #415

We don’t depend on it any more, no – our other income streams are greater than what we pull in from moongoo. We’ve been transitioning our income for years to de-emphasize moongoo in the likely event that CCP shook up moon mining.

I will readily admit that we’ll definitely pursue the new moon mining aggressively – our guys like to mine and they’re excited about this upcoming feature – but if it isn’t tuned properly or is otherwise infeasible for alliance level income, we’ll not lose any sleep over it. The rest of our income will cover our needs.

(78 Aster) #416

If we can mine it like ore why not be able to compress it like it too, being able to keep a mini model moon in your… the CQ was removed right? So… just having a small moon as a collectible? Non mineable mini moon… give it a mustache, some googly eyes, and a sombrero and you have something fun…

Far too long to be a good joke… not endorsing moon compression, except for goofy models

(Querns) #417

Oh, also, another point – there are 4900 moons in Delve and Fake Querious. I’m not sure we’ll have the manpower to fully exploit just what’s in our backyard, so don’t expect us to leap out and expand.

(Zetakya) #418

That depends on how many of the moons are worth Mining

(Querns) #419

With the addition of T1 ore to the mix? More than you’d think.

(TheGuy Akachi) #420

Just wondering, what use is highsec ores in moons? I mean why mine veldspar when you can mine spodium in an anom?