Dev Blog: October Balance Pass!

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(Sakura Hoshizora) #3087

Not fitting against ECM was the same choice as not fitting against Neuts.

If you don’t do it and meet an enemy using those modules you just deserve to die, and it’s only your own fault for deciding to not fit against it.

It is NOT the fault of ECM itself.


(GhostWhite) #3088

Already told you it is not the hp of the structures that was changed but the effects of the standup armor modules that was nerfed. Do you see anywhere in the patch notes a mention of changes to those modules ?

I cant file a but report because the description was now changed to mention the stacking penalties, so it is not a bug, it was an intended nerf that was made without announcing or consulting the structure owners community.


(Brisc Rubal) #3089

Again, this is wrong. Small gang, BLOPS, large fleet engagements - all of which represent the bulk of the uses of ECM in PvP, are still viable. The only sacrifice was in solo PvP, where it is clear that the bulk of the ECM complaints originated.

I asked for feedback and ideas. If you don’t have any, then don’t provide any. CCP will decide what to do regardless of whether the community puts forward ideas, and they aren’t relying on the community to fix anything. That you keep harping on this like me asking for community feedback is a bad thing is absurd.

This isn’t accurate, nor is it something for you to worry about.


(Brisc Rubal) #3090

I can’t speak for everybody, but as far as I’m concerned, this issue has been resolved as far as it should be resolved, and I don’t think any more changes are necessary.


(Brisc Rubal) #3091

No, you’re not. You’re still complaining that changes were made at all, and you refuse to acknowledge that any of the concerns folks had with ECM were valid.

All of the concern trolling about “process” and “results” is just cover for that.


(BIade Runner) #3092

You are the biggest troll around. The “bad feeling” excuse for this kind of change is also a monument of trolling for the players who’s “bad feelings” like “tears” are not just avoided, but warmly welcomed by a large chunk of the player base (your null sec block main entity also makes a role play from making the people feel bad).

If CCP care so much about feelings then it’s time to rethink a lot of other game mechanics who involve huge doses of unpleasant experiences…

Your mission accomplished banner that you display here don’t worth a dime, and don’t fool anyone.


(Khan Wrenth) #3093

Burying your head in the sand and pretending the sky is yellow isn’t doing you any favors. Pretending I’m saying something I’m not doesn’t further the debate or elevate any part of your side of it. I’ve refuted everything you’ve claimed, many times using your own arguments to point out exactly what’s wrong, and the best you can come up with is “Naw uh! I think it’s because you are just contrarian!”

I even outlined some examples of things that could convince me this was a necessary and prudent change, and you’re still here whining about it and deflecting the conversation to other areas.

So let’s go with this. You refuse to acknowledge that any of the concerns folks have with the ECM change were valid. All of the discussion about “agency” and “feels” is just cover for that.

See how utterly meaningless that is? How nonsensical? Hell, cowardly even.

When the wardec changes were announced it was upon the back of a pile of data saying the mechanic, as it stood, was an urgent problem. The ECM change was pushed through without any tangible need and the best defense you have of it so far is dangerously close to your childlike default of “quit whining about it!”.

I’m open to having my mind changed on this, but you’re going to have to do better than deflections and denials that should have been left back in grade school. You’re an adult, you’re a representative both in EvE and in the real world, and you need to act like it. You don’t even have the self-respect to say, “Look, I have no proof of my position that I can present, I just feel this is the right thing to do”. You stoop to “quit whining” which is pretty revealing that you have no real position or justification.


(Brisc Rubal) #3094

This is the frustrating thing - you seem to believe that sharing a differing opinion is somehow refuting what I said. It’s not. It’s merely you sharing your point of view. That’s great, but it’s not a refutation.

I haven’t refused to acknowledge anything. I think it’s perfectly valid for the folks who were using ECM in solo PvP to be upset that their style of gameplay has been changed by this fix. But I think it’s equally valid for those who were asking for these fixes and those who support them to note - and you’ve seen a few in this thread - that the use of ECM in solo PvP was one of primary reasons behind this change.

I have explained over and over again, what the issues were with ECM that led to the proposal for this change. You have dumbed down those concerns into sneering comments about “feels and agency.” The reality is that no other mechanic in the game did what ECM did, nor do whatever similar mechanics you’ve mention do things in the way that ECM does it. It was overpowered in solo situations, and the stories in here about how it was used demonstrate that.

The bottom line is that more people were negatively impacted by ECM in the way it was previously used than those who could claim they were positively using it and wanted it to stay the way it was. This change reduces the impact on those who were negatively impacted in solo situations, and provides a benefit to those who disliked ECM in the other, more common, uses of it. And, largely, other than the literal handful of people still complaining in this thread, the change has been popular and uncontroversial. Clearly, the player base recognized that the old way ECM worked wasn’t ideal.

That’s why it was changed. The CSM and CCP have both heard complaints from players about it, and you can look at comments made by Jin and Suitonia, among others, on the issue. It was included in a host of other changes that CCP was willing to make that were based on common concerns raised by players.

The thing is, I don’t really care whether your mind is changed on this or not. What’s done is done. I don’t need to convince you it was the right thing to do because it’s already been done.

That’s really the point of my “quit whining” comments - you guys are literally still here, still clinging to arguments in a nearly two month old thread about changes that are multiple patches past.

Let it go.


(BIade Runner) #3095

Ha ha, that kind of crap will may work on some brain dead, conformable population… But here you still have a lot of work to do before people will get silenced about the bad game design decisions who are still made, again and again and again.

And the last ECM crippling change is one of most notorious bad game mechanics change in the EVE history.

Well, many years after this stupid change was made you will still get the fallback for it, and as any kind of wrongdoing, just getting it done don’t absolve anyone from giving an account for his bad choices.


(Corraidhin Farsaidh) #3096

I’ll go point by point and do my best to keep any emotion driven commentry out of this.

OK, fair enough. No-one liked the RNG nature of ECM. But that hasn’t been changed, all that was added was the ability to always target the ECM boat, deleting solo ECM as an option. But to be clear, it is still functionally the same RNG mechanic under the hood (correct me if I’m wrong).)

It is not the players here who introduced those terms to the discussion. The change was touted on the basis that being jammed ‘feels bad’, and the jammed player ‘lacks agency’. Most people would prefer straight forward explanations, rather than this ‘touchy feely’ approach that is being adopted. Keep it simple, keep it clear, keep it concise.

This hasn’t changed the problem mechanic, simply masked it with a cludge fix.

So this can’t be worked on and improved? This is final state for ECM? Surely CCP/CSM should still listen to concerns and suggestions from affected players. Anything else can easily be construed as telling those players to fornicate elsewhere.

Firstly the ECM problem was there for how many patches before the ‘fix’? Shouldn’t those complaining prior to that have ‘quit whining’?

Secondly, and more seriously, you as a CSM member are telling players to stop caring about the game. That is just bad in my opinion.

The ECM change didn’t just affect sollo ECM pilots, it affected every ECM focused hull, every guristas/other NPC mission where ECM was supposed to add difficulty every manufacturer of ECM modules and hulls, citadel defence as standup ECM is now very much diminished in usefullnes, and probably other things I missed.

It was a fairly widespread mechanic, and was changed in what at least seems to be an ill thought out manner. The ‘change this bit now, fix the bits we nerfed/broke later’ approach really concerns me.


(Brisc Rubal) #3097

It was the RNG nature coupled with the fact that if you win the roll, you win the fight. There are lot of things in the game that have an RNG mechanic included, like damage calculations. But there was nothing like ECM, where if you win the roll, it’s game over for the other guy and he can either try to run or die quietly.

That’s how Rise talks. Sorry.

This is hilarious - I have been asking from the very beginning for feedback, and potential things that could be done for the ships most heavily affected (we’ve already seen one round of buffs) and I get accused by others that I’m demanding that the players fix the “problem” CCP created.

If folks want to provide feedback, that’d be great, because I’ve been asking for that from the beginning. But I’ve also made it clear that feedback that is basically “this sucks” and “change it back” isn’t constructive, and that’s 99% of what we’ve heard from the handful of people who didn’t like the change.

No, they were bringing a concern forward.

No, I’m telling them to stop banging their head against a wall and just go play the game and have fun. If this change alone makes the game not fun anymore, that’s kind of nuts.

Those changes are minor - in any situation where you’ve got ECM in a group setting, the mechanic is largely the same, but the defender at least has the ability to attack somebody and try to win the fight.

Every time something changes that somebody doesn’t like, the claim is that the fix was “ill thought” or there are complaints about the process. It gets old and it’s generally wrong. We have asked over and over again for them to make small changes faster and iterate off those changes. This is exactly what we’ve asked. The months long complete revamp model is what has created the idea that CCP makes a change and then ignores it for ten years. They’re trying to change, and this is an example of that change - and it’s one where they did what they said they’d do. They made the change, and immediately followed it up with buffs for the ships affected, just like they said they’d do. They get zero credit from that, just the same people who were bitching before the change bitching after it.

I guarantee after CCP spends months revamping war decs, somebody is going to criticize the process as being ill thought out. It’s a cheap concern troll.


(BIade Runner) #3098

I notice some frustration in your reply… Is that because, even after you spammed this thread with your post for months, people still refuse to accept that the ECM nerf was a well planned and useful change?

You never had any valid argument for this change, the only excuse you brought was that is the fastest way to balance ECM, and that is easy to implement by requiring less coding…
So don’t get frustrated if people cannot accept or digest your “now is done, accept it” narrative :neutral_face:


(Brisc Rubal) #3099

There are three people still talking here, and you’re one of them - and as far as I can tell, you’re just here to harass me.

I’ve explained multiple times why I support the change, and still do.


(Nevyn Auscent) #3100

When you declare every single point brought forward as a reason for the change as “Not valid” and then misquote people…
It ceases looking like a discussion and starts looking like trolling.

There have been plenty of points made for the change through this thread, yes some of them are more based around good game design philosophy which sometimes can be a bit confusing for people who only have player-side experience to understand, and don’t fit the edgy image EVE players love to have.
Just because you don’t like the points doesn’t make them invalid.


(BIade Runner) #3101

So folks posting in this thread, having as topic a game mechanic change, are harassing you… I wonder why are you such a permanent presence in this thread, that you even become to feel harassed by people… :sweat_smile:

You already presented your ideas, but now all what are you doing is to keep dismissing all different opinions as irrelevant. Maybe is time to accept that other people may have different opinions, and as you don’t own the supreme truths is better to “just let it go”?
Or all you want in fact is to have the last word on this issue at all cost? Is that so important to you?


(Brisc Rubal) #3102

I didn’t say folks, I said you.


(BIade Runner) #3103

I see… you must be a very sensitive guy. So if you don’t have the last word here you will keep feeling harassed? :rofl:

PS: If by posting here i inflict some distress to you, then i will quit writing on this thread. It’s OK now?


(Brisc Rubal) #3104

You’re not inflicting any distress on me. I’m simply pointing out your behavior. Trust me, I’m used to it.


(BIade Runner) #3105

Then i see no reason to stop expressing my opinions. And your opinion about my “behavior” in this thread is obviously wrong. I am a civil person :wink:


(DrysonBennington) #3106

Triglavian Ship Lineup - Will we be seeing Strategic Cruiser versions of Triglavian ships as well as Command Destroy and TIII Destroyers?