Attributes removal is a long lasting topic, and was postponed only because there was no good idea how to compensate for the the LP store impact. IMO in times of skill injectors attributes/remaps and long term skill planning do not add value to the game. It adds hurdles and unnecessary complexity to both a more casual and hardcode playstyles.
Uninformed long term skill planning is a stupid thing, no newbie knows what he or she will skill 3, 6 month or even one year ahead, and being locked into a wrong decision for a year is not the best experience.
The learning clone issue is not that big anymore with citadel clone switch, but still an unnecessary complexity. The learning implants boost none of the various playstyles but make things more complicated or costly only.
Imagine you logged in tomorrow and the attributes were gone. That you could now cross train anything from the plethora of available skills.
What negative effects would this have on your gameplay?
One would wager that a lot of folk, not just myself, would immediately add those skills we really want or need to train but had to wait for the next remap for into the que.
The sigh of joy would be heard for ten thousand years!
IF/HOW current implants are changed or whether substituted with some type of consumable LP biscuit that applied varying learning % increase up to the current maximum of 45 sp/m is the only hurdle.
I donât think anyone is suggesting making skills instant, or for a faster rate than we already have. The skills themselves would keep the same multiplier.
Care to explain to me what hinders you at the moment from cross training into anything? I donât get it? I just finished training Wing Commander V and now I train Heavy Assault Missile Spec V. Without remaps or attribute implants. I do not see where the problem lies.
I would be very dissatisfied because CCP would very likely not have done a thorough job and only halfheartedly removed the attributes and did not implement a proper compensation mechanic, like described above.
Your objections to the removal of attributes is primarliy trepidation of CCP failing to introduce a appropriate LP/Implant replacement. (A healthy concern we both and many others share)
Secondarily because, as you are not interested in maximizing your training plan for acquisition efficiency, others should also not be doing it?
With a tertiary demur towards newbros not having to ask how the system works.
I have not really cared about that since 2012 when I last remapped. And I have also not religiously cared about it when I started in 2011 because it was just too inconvenient to keep these things in mind and would have taken away too much enjoyment that I still had in EVE back then. All the skills and skill levels that you at a young character age finish within minutes, hours and at most few days. You can train into a lot of different things in a short amount of time to try them and see whatâs going on. For most of these tests you do not need max skills.
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Others should not cry about not getting 110% efficiency in a setting that lets them progress at all times, logged in or not. Not to mention that you can have your desired efficiency in some areas but not all areas. Choice used to be a big thing in EVE. But apparently newbies are exempt from that because they are âoverwhelmedâ.
You find someone to help you to figure out what you want to do, setup a rough skill training plan, remap for the best attributes and start training. If you find something else on the way and you really want to try it, you can just inject these skills into the training and do a few low levels to be able to test the thing and see what it is about. Like it? Keep training and maybe adjust your implants of necessary. Donât like it? Go back to the original plan. It is not rocket science (especially not as you do not need that skill even on an industry path until a few weeks into EVE).
Why shouldnât they ask about it? I do not get how people can be so incapable of asking simple questions when the exact same thing was common place in the past. Isnât this new generation supposed to be way more into communicating than all other generations before them?
As outlined in above posts, there are lots of ways to properly change the system by completely removing any attributes or skill training acceleration outside of event boosters and improve the LP market at the same time.
Also, as outlined above as well, I am just sick of this continuous bickering about the attributes system. It seems to be an insurmountable issue for newer people (which is a statement I do not believe in) that you would think CCP would think hard about getting rid of the system ⌠but instead they keep wasting time and keep this insurmountably terrible system in place. To me, this is nothing but cry wolf over an issue that has been blown out of proportion. And which was of course maintained by CCPâs inability to funnel people into EVE University from starter corps and support EVE University better, which is another issue that has been lingering for ages and no one has done something about it. If it was really such a huge deal-breaker for retention, CCP would do something about it as they have done with the âhorrificâ war system that was so âdisastrousâ for user retention.
Besides the remapsâŚ
The other biggest Issue is the stupid veterans that push newbros into faster trainingâŚ
Really you should be advising them that sure you can train something fasterâŚbut it doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of thingsâŚcause once you hit lv4 on a skill setâŚyour train time is on average the same in number of days with or without remaps or implants so why worry about itâŚ
A newbro should be taking the time to play the game and learning how about the mechanics not worrying how fast he is training.
âŚstop then, pour yourself a daiquiri, lie back and accept the possiblity that change can be good, even if effects others more than yourself.
You reiterate how this has no influence on your gameplay yet you seem to vehemently stupulate retaining it. A contrary possition to take.
Trying to flush out ideas through debate is good. Most of us are trying to do just that. You do seem to be the most stessed out here. You donât need to be.
I am not really stressed out about this happening or invested into keeping it. I am just dismayed about the naive reasoning for its removal (people really seem to be overburdened way too easily these days) as well as by this continued back and forth with some suggestions that want to interchange one inconvenience (implants and attributes) with another (timed boosters, for instance). CCP should just get rid of the system and be done with it.
There are way more important issues to tackle than this small inconvenience.
Take note. It is slightly different than you give.
You want to maximize your training plan. Now you can do it using attributes, remaps and attribute implants.
What people actually ask here is:
Maximizing training plan without doing it. They ask CCP to remove this and simply make maximized output by default.
Thatâs the difference.
Now if iâm not mistaken difference between proper and improper remap is somewhere about 5% of training speed. Is it really something which can stop you from playing and make you wanting? Especially when people talk about new players who do not have long skills to train? Really?
That is not what we are asking for dude. Not sure why you would even think that.
Itâs only been suggested as an extreme reactionary case. Iâm certainly not of that opinion and have not suggested it at any point. Infact quite the opposite. That would infact be a âworst caseâ scenario.
Itâs CCP data that apparently suggests this, It is real whether you want it to be or not. Anything that gets more people into WHâs, null and low sec is beneficial here.
Anything that gets players out of the implant loss reluctance rut is worth investigating. No?
I admit, I think the last time I remapped was⌠2010? Thatâs when I decided âall this remap nonsense is just more pointless bookkeeping, and skills take forever no matter whatâ.
This is exactly what people ask here: removing attributes and choices related to remaps and giving everybody the best possible training speed (like they already did everything right and maximized it).
Excuse me if my post was written like iâm writing about you and your opinion.
Be careful with you wishes, you might not like what you get instead. Today CCP removes implants, tomorrow they start to give ships for free? I remember a lot of such discussions for all they years iâm here. Every time people say âif you only remove XXX or YYY people will PVP more!â. And for some reason people do not do PVP more after CCP really removes another obstacle. It never happened yet.
The most glaring example for me was training clones. People promised to PVP like there is no tomorrow if CCP removes need to pay for clone after death. I donât remember CCP Dev blog talking âHurray! We see great insrease in PVP after we removed clones!â. Looks like nothing really changed then.
To train a 8 x multiplier int/mem skill from level IV to level V on a int/mem map takes 26d 25h 48m. For a 8 x per/willpower skill itâs 35d 11h 30m. (with all 5 +5 learning implants)
Thatâs just over 8 days less.
Is that insignificant? âŚ
Should you ever feel inclined, you could drive from ReykjavĂk to Uganda in about that time. âŚ
Then would not that be ALL implants then? Would I really want to take a frigate outside a high security with a head full of Nomads or Virtues? There will always be a barrier or excuse while any Implant remains.
No it wouldnât, because other implants provide benefits in space & only in space (Excluding a couple of niche industry implants which are also silly).
Therefore staying docked provides no benefit and thus is overall a net loss.
Training implants however provide full benefit while docked.
It is significant for sure. But look at who are the main official beneficiary of these changes? New players. And tell me please when new players meet these skills?
For sure you have meant veterans here. But supporters of attribute removal often mention gap between new players and veterans and tell that it will help reducing this gap.
Still donât see a problem?
People will always find reasons to not risk. There always will be something which needs to be removed to have everyone suddenly wanting to PVP. Like all previous changes.
The point is itâs a 20% difference. Doesnât matter how long the skill is. The percentage doesnât change. Over a month they lose about 6 days worth of training because of remaps if they have to train off map, which they will.
Sooo, the main reason for wanting to remove Attributes is because Neural Remaps are supposedly too confusing for new players to understand? For example, which attributes to max out for optimal training speed?
That info is easily gained when you hover the mouse on a specific skill group in the skills tab of the Character sheet - an info box will show listing the Attributes associated with that skill group. Maybe CCP needs to do a better job of explaining the User Interface.
Second reason for wanting the removal of Attributes is because Neural Remaps currently lock players into a specific attribute set that isnât beneficial for optimal skill training in various skill groups.
Easy fix, just remove the timer on Neural Remaps so players can change attributes whenever they change skill groups.
Now about players not wanting to lose their clone with +5 Attribute Implants due to the ISK cost associated with them, thatâs a different topic which has nothing to do with the Attribute / Neural Remaps game mechanic being too complex for new players. If anything that pertains to LP stores, Market and Trade costs.
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