Devblog: CSM Winter Summit 2019 Meeting Minutes

[Erebus_TheChin_Sundance]

Let’s try and strip this down objectively.

Eve is based around the acquisition of skill points over time, and we like to feel in some way that we have influence over the direction/speed of this process.

Does the current system enhance or handicap this task?

Does the current complexity add worth/depth to the process?

If I’m completely honest, (and I can only speak as a casual’ish single account player) I would have to say no. The current system begins with daunting confusion, heads into mild dissatisfaction as you start to comprehend the mechanics, in pops accelerator addiction and expensive rehap retreats, culminating in disapointment as you are stuck on any remap for a whole year.

Dispite the fact that changing the current system may be a large undertaking and thus affect mutiple facets, would it be worth sorting this out sooner rather than later? Over the 5 years I have been part of this game this subject has appeared in many of the previous CSM summits.

[Erebus_TheChin_Sundance]

you replied as I was steve. I think we all agree it’s current interation is a pain in the ass at best, but it’s what we have and we work with it.

Seems a hearty discusion is in order. Would this be something CCP would like to do sooner rather than later?

edit: I refer to my previous post.

@Erebus_TheChin_Sundance

Let’s imagine they are removed, what is the proposed outcome?

@Erebus_TheChin_Sundance

Aside from just saying stuff, could we think this through with some transparecy as It might actualy be a really good idea.

[Rivr_Luzade]

@Erebus_TheChin_Sundance

If I’m completely honest, (and I can only speak as a casual’ish single account player) I would have to say no. The current system begins with daunting confusion, heads into mild dissatisfaction as you start to comprehend the mechanics, in pops accelerator addiction and expensive rehap retreats, culminating in disapointment as you are stuck on any remap for a whole year.

Daunting confusion? Where? Skill categories have attributes. You plug implants according to these attributes into your head. You have people in your starter corp and elsewhere that will very likely also explain to you how to better manage your skill queue to get more out of the training time or how to use a remap, if at all necessary. Competent mentors will also tell you not to pay too much attention to the attributes and training time because you gain skill points anyway and the minimal time advantages in the beginning are not worth the hassle. Competent mentors tell people to plug in 4 +3s and leave it at that (yes, no Charisma because you do not train leadership anyway). Not to mention that plans like Steve’s suggestion only increase frustration in certain people because now they have to alarm clock for running out accelerator timers again because they have not yet trained the now mandatory Biology V. There is hardly any unreasonable complexity involved if people are being taught properly.

The problems solely come from people not getting educated properly.

However, if these attributes and implants were to be removed, everyone should get the max remap +5 training speed and there should be no boosters at all, except for events. In exchange, these 5 old implant slots should be made available for hardwirings so that way too heavily populated slots like 6 and 7 can be stretched out more to be able to insert more hardwirings.

[Erebus_TheChin_Sundance]

hmm tad agressive but I get your point. My point however is simply, would the game be better or worse if that entire “edjucated” ellement was removed? And I believe that’s essentialy all that is being discused at present.

It’s very easy to be condescending when you understand something but someone else does not. Despite understanding the sytem now, I’m not going to pretend I understood when I started. Or that because I now understand it, everyone else has to jump through the same ring of fire I did.

Out of interest, how would you “educate properly”? Whip? Gas?

[DeMichael_Crimson]

@Steve_Ronuken

Regarding Attributes:

Right now, all attributes do is:

1. Lock players who know about them into a training plan which may be sub-optimal for actual use, but optimal for training. (I’m Int/Mem mapped, so I’ll train X Y and Z, so I don’t train slower. I won’t train W, which would be handy, but I’d get fewer SP)
2. Confuse new player into thinking they’re actually meaningful, rather than just arbitrary numbers which can be moved around. Like they are in other games. (Being really intelligent means I’ll learn everything faster! And I’ll increase my charisma so npcs like me better!)
3. Discourage PvP because people are in their +5s training clone and don’t want to risk the implants.

I agree with point #1 because I’ve been there and done that.

However for point #2, like I said earlier, CCP can easily code a tutorial for new players explaining about that.

Now about point #3, for activities that may result in clone death I do have J-clones set up with Basic attribute implants. Just to insure my skill training continues faster than the normal rate for clones without attribute implants. And of course because they’re cheap and easy to replace.

Actually the real problem is new players not understanding how to set up Neural Remaps.

Hell, I haven’t even bothered with doing Neural Remaps for a long time now due to having trained up all the necessary important skills a long time ago. As such, I have my attributes more or less set up as ‘Jack Of All Skills’:

Intelligence 27,
Perception 25,
Willpower 25,
Memory 25,
Charisma 22,

Augmentations:
Implant slots #1 to #5 are all +5 Improved

Despite having those attribute implants installed (along with other Hardwiring Implants to boost ship stats), I rarely ever use my J-clones anymore either. Granted I mainly do PvE but I still travel in all security levels of space, thus the risk of losing those implants is always present but that’s something I’m not really concerned about anymore.

For a long time now my main concern has been to just have my character train skills as fast as possible without having to do any other extra steps in the process, such as doing Neural Remaps.

@Steve_Ronuken

So, if I had my druthers, the following would happen:

1. Everyone’s attributes would be set to the same level, so skill training is flat across the board.
2. All Attribute modifying implants would be removed, or modified (so Slaves no longer modify attributes. It’s not like people plug in Slaves because they care about the training speed.)
3. Skill training boosters would be added to LP stores. Flat boost to skill training, roughly equivalent to +1s to +5s. Like the Accelerators, these would be durationed (longer duration) and persistent across podkills.
4. Attributes would no longer show up anywhere in game UI.

If anything, I say remove Neural Remaps but keep the Attribute Implants in the game and allow them to be removed and reused again. Players can then install mixed attribute implant levels to boost certain skill groups for faster training.

Anyway, there’s more than just new players to consider, the proposed change of eliminating attributes will not only disrupt the in-game market and ruin a lot of players game experience, it will also subject CCP to a nightmare work load that will require rewriting a lot of the game code. Something they probably don’t really want to do anyway.

[Taloris_Aldercain]

@Rivr_Luzade

I have been killing so many

@Rivr_Luzade

I have not

@Rivr_Luzade

I train whatever I like

@Rivr_Luzade

I

@Rivr_Luzade

I

That’s the thing about MMOs and updates - they aren’t focused around an individual. What you do is fine and dandy, that doesn’t mean that’s the same for everyone else.

@Rivr_Luzade

The problems solely come from people not getting educated properly.

This has been painfully obvious for years, yet never really gets addressed.

[Rivr_Luzade]

@Erebus_TheChin_Sundance

would the game be better or worse if that entire “edjucated” ellement was removed? And I believe that’s essentialy all that is being discused at present.

Considering that educating new people is not a priority anymore for neither users nor CCP, I would say EVE would be subjectively better without implants, hardwirings, skill training, different weapons for ships (look at the reasoning for trig ships’ 1 weapon slot. "easier balancing, of course) and so on. Would it be a better EVE … I wonder about that?

@Erebus_TheChin_Sundance

It’s very easy to be condescending when you understand something but someone else does not.

I put some effort into understanding the system and make it work for me. It’s not even rocket science (until you start digging deep into industry and science careers) in the beginning. You do not need to understand all intricacies right from the start and no one but you yourself expects that from you. But I expect you to do some reading and some learning. If that means I come across as condescending when I expect basic things from you, that is totally fine with me.

@Erebus_TheChin_Sundance

Out of interest, how would you “educate properly”? Whip? Gas?

Talking. Answering questions. Explaining. Linking helpful material. Debunking myths like the one about that you have to have +5s from the start or you miss out. And of course berating and driving people away who act unreasonably entitled, especially these dumb farmville-like users.

Just recently I had a nice talk with a newbie about how to make money quickly. I explained the standards to him (missions, exploration, mining), what ships to use, how to find agents and so on. During the exchange he managed to loot a ganker wreck on a station undock and from there an even more profound conversation emerged about ganking, piracy in high sec, how you can make good bank by looting these ships, what to look out for in order to not get suspect baited and so on. After that chat he had not only made about 10M ISK in a matter of 5 minutes, he also knew where to find more of these wrecks, how to repackage modules and repair them for sale on the market and to be careful not to get blapped by Tornados.

This is the kind of education I am talking about.

@Taloris_Aldercain

That’s the thing about MMOs and updates - they aren’t focused around an individual. What you do is fine and dandy, that doesn’t mean that’s the same for everyone else.

Apologies, next time I use We instead of I.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

I agree with Rivr 100%, especially with this:

@Rivr_Luzade

There is hardly any unreasonable complexity involved if people are being taught properly.

The problems solely come from people not getting educated properly.

However, if these attributes and implants were to be removed, everyone should get the max remap +5 training speed and there should be no boosters at all, except for events. In exchange, these 5 old implant slots should be made available for hardwirings so that way too heavily populated slots like 6 and 7 can be stretched out more to be able to insert more hardwirings.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Ash_Beldrulf

Maybe in the next CSM election we can get a CSM that can address High Sec issues.

Mining is a high sec issue? That’s news to the industrialists in my corp.

[Erebus_TheChin_Sundance]

It would be good if the max training rate remained the same.

I meerly question whether all the baggage is necessary? If the general mechanic remains the same, skills keep the same multiplier how could it be a bad thing? Why spend time teaching something that could just be simplified? It’s not like eve has a shortage of things to learn. Would it not be great to be able to just swap from a drone skill to a trade skill at the same training rate and without having to wait 12 months?

Plus, all this is dependant entirely on what CCP think or can even do. Of which we know little.

We need to know more… …cough…CCP…cough

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Penance_Toralen

Ask anybody over 18yrs from the AUTZ - it’s a fact of life. Has been for near going on a century. Isn’t The Judge AU?

Not knowing how something works, not exactly a qualification of credence.

How’s that been going for them? Last time I checked, the Austrialian government was not exactly popular.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@DeMichael_Crimson

Character Attributes is one of the major guiding forces connected with skill training as well as other game mechanics. Removing character attributes would require a complete re-work of the entire game resulting in the removal of a lot of items associated with it.

Not really. Just give everybody a set training amount per hour, let that be modified by boosters and implants. Done.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Drago_Shouna

I agree, I think it’s absurd that players who never use the official forums get voted on to the CSM.

Not everybody has the same patience and willingness to get screamed at that I do.

@Drago_Shouna

Tough, I have no sympathy for your circle of friends.

If they like the game as much as they say, they’ll sub if it gets too hard.

Not my circle of friends, my constituents.

I’d rather not force them to make the decision, when it’s clearly in the best interests of the game’s long term health to ensure plex price inflation doesn’t go through the roof.

[Erebus_TheChin_Sundance]

I suspect, and rightly so, concerns over existing and purchased LP assets would be prevalent.

Poke CCP for more info please

[DeMichael_Crimson]

Exactly, why shake up everything when there’s plenty of other more pressing matters in the game that need to be addressed.

[Erebus_TheChin_Sundance]

Indeed there are many pressing matters, but like it or not is skill point aquisition not the core, the very root of eve. The hook on wich we dangle. The key to the door of content.

Is nostalgia a concern here?

[Erebus_TheChin_Sundance]

It’s clear we need more information from CCP before we panic

I’m going to await some clarifaction from them, but reiterate my formal request for the aforementioned info.

lot’s of other things of import in the minutes, like when will be getting kilts in the NES… looks @Steve_Ronuken

[DeMichael_Crimson]

The issue is not the attribute implants, the issue is new players not understanding about Neural Remaps.

CCP can either create a basic tutorial explaining that or just make all characters have the same base attributes and simply remove Neural Remaps from the game.

If players want to boost their skill training to be faster, they can use the various attribute implants for that. Just have all attribute implants be reusable so players can change them to optimize for specific skill groups.

[Erebus_TheChin_Sundance]

right, so it’s a case of time?

time: to make npe to explain Vs time: to remove/change current system?

Looks @CCP this time…

[DeMichael_Crimson]

It’s not about time, it’s about which option would cause less disruption to the game overall.

Creating a tutorial about Attributes, Implants and J-clones should be much easier and quicker to do then to re-code the whole game.