Nyx on beacon for safety
2 Likes
Thats all fine, but at the current rate, these new mutated items will likely do a lot more harm on the rest that do want to spend more of their time with game and get greater rewards from. (I need not explain myself on that to you here, Salvos did a pretty good job already.)
It’s like the exploration revamp Exodus, that pretty much allowed every casual noob and his grandmother access to abundant iskies for so little combined effort.
All these schemes added over time (Plex, injectors…) to mitigate risk and effort for solo casuals with far too decent isk rewards in the end, has always turned out ■■■■ for the economy, and driven a skyrocketing inflation due to too much isk supply being generated, and not enough large conflicts to destroy it.
Those people who keep boasting about having “lives” and keep wanting to play Eve alongside it simply have confused priorities, they should just not be touching Eve, for the greater good of it, or at least postpone its time-intensive nature. There was a time when every podpilot understood this. And at the very least never demanded Eve to be more suited their own RL context, giving free reign for CCP to expand their vision how they saw fit, and to have the balls to simply say no as well. Which, they’ve clearly havent shown the will to of late…
2 Likes
You kinda don’t get it. Simply put, us players of the past have grown up. When Eve launched the entire gaming demographic was different. What can be described as “hardcoreness” of one sort or another was the trend in MMOs back in those days. Now its no longer possible.
In addition to the evolution of the gaming customers (players) demographics, games themselves have greatly evolved thus providing competition.
Eve is ultimately a business that needs to thrive. There is plenty of data available as to what the playerbase can be classified as, you can look it up, a lot of it is provided by CCP itself. If I remember correctly last time they said that 75% of games population is in high sec and large percentage of those were playing for the single player activities within an MMO universe, thus providing multiplayer interactions of one sort or another. Granted not on the same level as other playstyles, but still they do. CCP can no longer afford to ignore that chunk of player population, its that simple, they can not drive them away because this chunk provides money, a lot more of it then the other chunk.
So to simply put, look at it this way, its just another form of PvP. It is on you to adapt or die out. Your choice, because the changes are here and there will be more of them regardless if you like it or not.
3 Likes
Excellent ! Finaly some facts !
So, let’s debunk some myths here, and first expose your main hypothesis : there would somehow be 1/10 T2,5 module. And a hidden hypothesis : there will somehow be an infinite supply of mutaplasmids !
The hidden hypothesis is plain wrong. Maybe the low grade mutaplasmids will be common enough to be use by everyone, but these mutaplasmids wont produce anything near what can be called T2,5 level items. Just look at the stats on Sisi.
And the second hypothesis is compeltely ignorant of the stats, or exagerate immensely what is called a T2,5 item.
First, you need to realize than 66% of the mutated items will have worst fitting. That’s why I’m not convinced that T2 will be the best candidate for mutation. IMO the best item would most of the time be the low fitting T1 meta item. Because a good roll will expand it’s stat to T2 or beyond with very low fitting (compared to T2), and THAT is something interesting. Obtaining a low fitting roll on these low fitting items will also bring new possibilities. Using T2 to hope for low fitting roll though is only an expensive way of obtaining the same result, although a very good roll will indeed be T2,5.
But what is a T2.5 item then ? That is still to defind. But on most items you simply cannot rely on one stat to be good at the expanse of the others. An MWD for example with good speed but bad signature bonus will often not be worth it, and if the fitting is too high, which can be very easy with 90% chance to have either higher CPU or PG requirement than T2, it can compromise the whole fit. For modules with range, you probably will never accept a bad roll on the range stat. And the list can go on still.
So Hoping for 1/10 good module is very naive, at best, if you aim for somthing that can be called T2,5. But the sadest part is that even at this ratio the price will be so high that faction module will be more available and less expansive.
2 Likes
Dat 75% demografx figure bro, you used it like a champ !
People aren’t really meant to stay in hisec indefinitely and not get bored eventually, and that demographic, it’s also a very complex mix of a lot variables of pilots (mostly alts from bigger non hisec alliances) and one simply cannot base an argument on it and of the likes you just pulled.
Also it’s not like CCP never listened to that tantrum-throwing and piss-waving demographic either, by giving them more and more spoonfed/themepark toys to use in a relatively safe and risk-free enviornment, ie Incursions, revamped exploration, new missions, injectors …
All for the sake of the argument that these so called “grown individuals” think they have better ■■■■ to do than play the game in the way they used to play back in their student/less responsible years, and would rather have the game fundamentally changed (ie fuckedover) over time, and screwing all the other sides of Eve demographics for that same old argument for casual themepark solo crap just because they think their RL affairs entitles them to, once again …
This is complete utter BS and CCP has been falling for it far too long already.
Hell, it’s pratically all they’ve been listening to because you lot sucking it up to the CSMs and throwing blackmailing fits of nerd rage to say the game wouldn’t survive and compete in the real world without you, that your demographic’s too “big and important to the game” (ie: Single player activity is ? lol, go and play GW2 then you tool…) and that the game needs to evolve and remain competitive and yada yada yada…
Its that very same demographic that constantly moans because they want it so easy and then simply quit the game because they get bored from having so much handed to them, then they go find some other game to get bored in, and 90% of the time not because of RL context but because of their total inaptitude to accept the fact they can’t get what they want from a specific game environment for the time being, and simply learn to move on from age-old kiddy nostalgia and let the game they love so much just be.
Also, let me tell you one thing about thriving and competition, it’s called business specificity and means not following where the common crowd goes or keeps telling you to go, that’s an assured fail direction since it’s becoming just another clone of what’s already out there.
Eve wouldn’t have lingered on for 15 years if it hadn’t hanged on to its niche, unique and tightnit vision/market, and that which seperates its from all other MMOs.
Though, I can’t say they’ve been holding onto or remained loyal to that vision very well for the last 6 years…
Thanks to … you know whom ?
2 Likes
I haven’t had chance to follow this properly so not sure if the is the case. Why are Triglavians carrying and dropping BPC’s conveniently in the format used by the Empires? Surely they should need to be reverse engineered from hull salvage? Preferably using a mix of tech II and tech III components.
Just seems odd to me.
2 Likes
Probably because such a thing would invite such comments like, “Well, I just killed about 18 Machs in this mission against Angels, why can’t I also reverse engineer that? Heck, that technology is a lot more familiar to me and the empires than the stupid Trig stuff is”.
2 Likes
Didn’t someone point out that when you recycle bricked mutated modules you get T2 components back?
2 Likes
-
The ratio for a desirable mutation was, as I said, a generous theoretical. The purpose of ascribing a ratio, was to convey that creating desirable mutations will involve a great deal of T2 mat/module sink (that involves zero combat PvP).
-
There will be an indefinite amount of mutaplasmids available, unless everyone stops running the pockets (which is extremely unlikely).
If its made from a T2 module, it is accurate to describe it as a T2.5 module. Whether it has undesirable or desirable stats doesnt change that. Its still a T2.5 module.
That remains to be seen.
1 Like
It is not a “generous” assumption, it is an assumption tailored to support you crusade against nullsec and the application of mutaplasmids to T2 modules.
You conveniently discard the fact that the more tries you need to obtain a good module will dramaticaly increase the price of this good mutated module. A price that can be prohibitive when there already exists better and cheaper modules in the form of faction, DED and officer modules.
And so you understand it clearly : you are running your crusade based on a fantasy ! Mutated modules will NEVER harm the market of faction and higher modules because they will be worst and more expansive. Maybe once in a while a mutated module will be of DED or faction level power, but it will then be of officer.
Understand this clearly : no one will ever mass produce mutated module to take on officer market because he would ruin himself.
Which lead us here : you are completely ignoring the fact that in order to produce what would be, according to you, harmful for the market and the game you would need crazy numbers of mutaplasmids. If the offer is not high enough, and it would need to be *insanely high to feed the demand you are conveniently lowering, prices will skyrocket, preventing *ANY form a industrialization of the mutation process.
Now here you are totaly hypocrite. It is NOT accurate to describe a modified T2 module as a T2,5 module because in EVE the scale is tied to the power. T1 is inferior to T2, which is inferior to faction, etc.
Besides, and this proves you are only a hypocrite, if any mutated T2 module can be described as T2,5 then 100% of mutated modules would be T2,5 and not 10%, which would make your whole post completely senseless.
Now we could also make estimation for the price of the rarest mutaplasmids, by considering either low or high offer, your fears would still show baseless. So please, ask me to do it.
But I realize something : maybe you don’t understand that only the rarest mutaplasmids will ever be able to produce faction grade modules ? The rarests. Someone here posted that he found about 5 of them in 18 low level sites. One in four. Even if you run 10 sites per hour, that is 2 and a half. And that is not even considering that you need specific mutaplasmid for one given module. Which should be of the order of one in twenty. If there is any demand for these modules, the mutaplasmid alone will be be as expensive as a faction modules.
2 Likes
Right. I really enjoy the way you rant, but in the context of this thread and in regards of Abyssal Deadspace, there is one thing you’ll have to realize. Highsec players will probably hate this content, because it gives them a suspect timer. EVERYONE who makes the small effort of scanning them down, can attack them on exit. People will run these sites in shiny fits and other people will be able to legally hunt them down.
While this is a form of content people can “hop into” for a short period of time, if their RL doesn’t allow more, it also comes at this prize. The outcome is not “casual PVE”. People who want “casual PVE” join Nullsec entities and rat in Supercarriers.
GREAT IDEA. +1
That’s a bug and will be fixed before it goes live.
Yes. 1/10 chance on a good roll is completely unrealistic.
Because that argument alone completely dismantles what he says will happen. He has to ignore it unless he wants to acknowledge he was wrong. You don’t expect the guy that spams this thread and ignores any counter-argument to do that, do you? 
Good point. Alas, it won’t even be 10%.
Not even for all modules. Webs for iinstance. T2 Webs can’t reach - on a perfect roll with the best Mutaplasmids - the combined strength/low fitting of any Faction web. Just one example.
2 Likes
1:10 is generous theoretical.
1:100 is far less generous,
This is no crusade against Player NS, just pointing out facts of how Player NS will benefit from these changes, more than anyone else.
I didnt discard that.
Its included in the sink.
This “crusade” is your fantasy/fiction.
We will see.
I didnt ignore that.
I specifically addressed that by stating that the generation of mutaplasmids will continue as long as people run the content.
When its mutated, it ceases to be a T2 module. Value is added by expense of the mutaplasmid, it changes form and stats, and becomes a T2.5 module. Whether the mutation in stats that results is sellable/desirable or not, does not change that.
Sure, make an estimate.
It will be market regulated.
They dont have to be faction grade, to suck customers out of the faction/DED module market. They just have to be better than T2 for the purposes of the purchaser.
Oh, so you mean that players will simply through money out the window for the sake of it ? Out your sink would be more accurate I guess. Don’t you think people use their money only to get a benefit out of it ? If a garbage module cost more than a faction/DED module, people will by the second, and the first will not be used. And as you need to invest money in the sink to get something worse than faction/DED module, no one will use your sink.
Is it a sink if nobody through anything into it ?
I can only bow before such an argument !
Ok, let me translate what you are saying :
- people will through their isks and T2 materials out in a sink to get a slightly better than T2 module.
- these slightly better than T2 modules will be far more expensive than faction/DED modules, but somehow people will prefer them over faction/DED modules.
If you find this logical, please explain, because I do not understand.
The value of the module comes from the benefit it gives you in space when you fly a ship with this module. If a module has worst stats than a T2 module, people will never buy it for more than a T2 module (unless it’s a scam, but I think we can agree that this is not the matter of this subject).
Hence, if you spend money to create a worst module out of a regular one, you simply lose money ! You do not create a T2,5 module, you simply pay to reprocess a module.
That is not generous theoretical. That is a fantasy you use to back your stupid theory. We have proven this several times already. Stating simply that you are generous while we are not is irrelevant, it does not make it a truth when statistics demonstrate that your number is dead wrong while the other is what we can expect in the light of the informations we have.
3 Likes
The first question to ask is “who will use these mutaplasmids ?” Because the answer will determine half the profitability of the abyssal pockets. If the abyssal pockets are not worth the time and the risk, no one will do them.
Both the randomness of the mutation and the statistics of them prevent the process from being industrialized. This means it wont be used by large groups of people, that is simply impossible. Small groups might consider it, but I think they will quickly abandon the idea. Because in a fleet you look for homogeneity, availability of the materials. Faction is simply more reliable and more available than anything mutations will provide.
That leaves us with our customers : individual pilots. Either solo pvp pilots looking for original fits, small gang pilots trying to find something orginal to add to their fleet, pilots who lack skills to use something for their fleet, pilots too poor to buy faction stuff but can afford to roll the dices occasionaly.
I’m not saying, of course that no idiot will try to produce uber modules to sell them on contract. Some idiot will try, and they will sell something, and they will lose stupid amount of money in the process. The randomness of the mutations means that it is better for most anyone interested in the process to buy the mutaplasmids and try by himself. That is in my opinion.
But let’s continue to the next important part : the offer. The designated customers can be wealthy enough to buy loads of mutaplasmids for their experiments so the demand should be high enough, if not on the scale of anything that fit into a doctrine. That will not be a huge market, Ibut I think a decent one. There is one major unknown paramter though for this : how much bpc will drop and how much will they sell for. If it’s too low, the pockets won’t be interesting enough to oversupply the market with mutaplasmids and their profitability will depend on the mutaplasmids demand. If they are high enough the mutaplasmids will only be a by-product and flood the market. In the first case nullsec dwellers will probably prefer their anomalies and mutaplasmids will be cheap enough (low tier ones at least). In the second case mutating modules will be rather expensive.
I expect something in the middle of this : low tier mutaplasmids will be available enough for people to play with it on cheap modules, and richer people can play with more expensive mutaplasmids. In both cases the T2 market will not be too disturbed after it realize no one will industrialize the process on these modules. Of course it will be disturbed for some weeks before that because people are peaple. Faction, DED and officer modules might see an increase in demand from rich capsuleers trying to overbling their ships.
Overall I like a lot the idea that poorer pilots might close the gap from rich pilots with mutated modules, although this possibility have been severely hampered by the nerfs.
4 Likes
One point that must be brought up is that mutaplasmids are only half of the benefits of the abyss. And arguably now the less desirable loot. The triglavian ship and module blueprints, module drops and unique materials require for their construction will be highly sort after as the new ships enter the game. Abyssal pockets will be the only source of these initially, before numbers of produced ships on the market rise.
Currently blueprints dropped on SISI are 5 run copies, requiring significant amounts of Crystalline Isogen-10 (given only 5 or so of this unique abyssal material are dropped at one time).
Therefore interest in the abyss will be wider than those just wishing to farm mutaplasmids, especially given the negative press their advent, and subsequent nerfing by CCP has created.
4 Likes
That doesnt look like a list to me.
Good question. I think it is hard to already give an answer to that other than: everyone at first. One thing I’m fairly certain we will see is not-so-rich players using the cheaper end of Mutaplasmids to play around with cheap T1 and T2 modules and see where it gets them. Even the rich maybe.
True and that’s also one of the stronger reasons Mutaplasmids will hardly interfere with existing module markets in a way that they could simply replace a market. However, for the cheaper end of PVP fleets, I could imagine that certain things become possible. For instance: if it turns out that certain Meta T1 modules whose T2 version is regularly used in large-fleet fits, can be mutaplasmided for a cheap price-tag (with a high enough probablity) to reach an area which makes them more desireable than T2, we might see that.
The focus here would be on an area. For MWD/AB that will not work because different speed would suck, Tackle modules are not something that every ship fits, but for Shield Extenders, I could see that happening. Maybe Plates too, although the mass would make that more hariy. Does that make sense? As long as module stats 1,2,3 and 4 are each in the range of (x,y) the module can count as: success.
We still might not see it in the really large fleets, because sourcing these modules in mass will be a pain in the ass, even if the conditions of a successful roll would be rather broad.
And mostly cheap enough for small gangs.
Exactly!
The supply will also be limited because highsec dwellers may avoid these sites after realizing that they may have to face PVP on the other side.
Yeah, I like that too. I think for propulsion mods and Neuts we are somehow at a good place right now. Tackle mods and reppers have been nerfed too hard.
Agreed and it’s sad that all the spam in this thread stopped us from discussing that part altogether. I’m very curious of how the meta around Triglavian ships will end up. The need to stay within range ask for a lot of range control. Do you think we will see the return of remote repping small gangs with these ships?
Btw, I enjoy discussing this with you guys and for once not replying to the idiot who tries to keep this thread hostage.
3 Likes
You enjoying discussing with others that have your agenda and the most to gain, in support of it.
Yes, we know that.
As am I.
Certainly the triglavian ships are fast enough. The Vedmack could reach 1km/s with a c-type 10MN AB or abyssal AB and over well 2km/s with MWD fitted. The tracking of entropic disintigrators is also the highest of any base turret in the game, clearly to be able to keep up with the orbit speeds designed for these ships. Sadly the fitting room is still a little tight preventing medium neuts/nos being fitted, but even small nos/neuts work well to add cap stability if fitting with an empty high slot between them and the disintegrator (necessary due to the overheating benefit (and lack of real heat damage) of disintrigrators. And I feel the Vedmak could still apply damage fairly well with Tackyon (close range) plasma ammo even when orbiting a large ship at small neut optimal (5000m or so) and sig/speed tank any battleship damage.
This leads to them being fairly potent for both small group pvp (roams and gatecamps especially) as well as solo PVE. I have tested the vedmak in tier 1-4 filaments of all the minus resist type (electrical, gamma, firestorm and exotic) and it has had very few issues. (all be it requiring a large cap battery for stability and energy warfare resistance.
They seem quite suited to running the abyssal sites and I feel we shall seem some inventive fits for the triglavian ships using mutaplasmids to alleviate the slightly tight fitting space.
3 Likes
And guess whom will source them the most, Player NS.
Buy a stack of L1 filaments and park in your most secured system, and run them 24/7.