Does anyone actually believe this?

Solonius_Rex · February 21, 2019, 4:36pm

Does it take more time to fly an Orca than it does a skiff?

Someone said that I was being disingenuous for saying that it takes longer to train into a skiff than it does an orca. He brought up the fact that there are mining drone specialization skills to consider as well.

Okay, fair enough. Even though Skiffs use mining drones too, and can use mining drone specialization skills too, but lets ignore that for the skiff and add it to the orca.

Oh, never mind. It only adds 15 days to the orca, to get mining drone specialization.

So how does an orca take longer to get into and use, than a skiff? Maybe im just too stupid to understand this.

Dacen_Windayack · February 21, 2019, 4:46pm

Lot of people will say being able to sit in a hull and flying a hull well are two different things. Orca you’re usually expected to be boosting so need annoying leadership skills.

But no, Orca is quicker as Skiff is tech II and need V in a longer skill.

Also, back in the days of old, Orca was a lot longer to train for as well.

Solonius_Rex · February 21, 2019, 5:01pm

Sure, but, lets say you were just using it as a solo mining vessel, over the skiff. That alone makes it use far far less time, right?

Agondray · February 21, 2019, 5:35pm

Im sorry you missed the changed, almost no one uses a orca to boost unless its alts, it is now the high sec solo mining ship of choice.

Unless i go all yeild and no tank on the majority of my barges, increased time in the field has yielded more ore without the need to dock constantly.

welcome to Eve online, solo mode.

Ms_Steak · February 21, 2019, 6:08pm

which leads to conclusion that Orca’s own yield should be nerfed so it doesnt overshadow barges

Solstice_Projekt · February 21, 2019, 6:40pm

Why would you not? We do that too.

Rocket_Hellfire · February 21, 2019, 7:03pm

Sitting in a ship does not mean you can wield the full power of that ship… Yes, you can sit in an Orca faster, but between fleet/leadership skills and implant skills and boosting skills an Orca takes far longer. A Skiff out-mines an Orca in yield. Orcas are NOT mining vessels first, that is just a secondary ability, and even at max’d out mining drone skills with Augmented Mining Drones it’s still ‘Meh!’.

Not sure what you are arguing about…

Solonius_Rex · February 21, 2019, 7:04pm

And what if you wanted to use the orca as a mining ship, solo?

Rocket_Hellfire · February 21, 2019, 7:07pm

You can, but you are better off with a Covetor and a hauler if you want yield. It takes a looooooooong time to fill up that Orca solo. Yield and speed are what matters. The Orca excels at neither. Covetor/hauler will out yield an Orca all day every day and it’s 1 Billion ISK cheaper.

Maekchu · February 21, 2019, 7:13pm

Sure… An Orca takes longer to get all relevant skills to 5. Here is a picture of mastery comparison on a completely clean character.

That being said. It’s only a little under 5 days more training time on the Orca and we’ve already established that the Orca is a support ship. Remove those “Foreman mining bursts” skills and I’m sure that the Orca is indeed faster to skill into than the Skiff.

I don’t think Solonius is arguing yield capabilities. Just arguing that for solo mining, the Orca is faster to train into than the Skiff. Feel free to correct me, if I’ve misunderstood this discussion.

Solonius_Rex · February 21, 2019, 7:15pm

Nope, thats perfectly fine, thanks!

Solonius_Rex · February 21, 2019, 7:16pm

Sure, but if you wanted, really wanted to use the orca, to mine, solo, would it take longer to skill than a skiff?

Zachri · February 21, 2019, 7:36pm

Or as a miner I blew up once explained: “training time is one thing, but an Orca has way more hp than a skiff cuz it’s bigger”.

Right >.<

So I reminded him that he had just exploded. Still didn’t sink in. Last I saw he multiboxes 20 orca’s in Perimeter with T1 ice mining drones.

Rexxar_Santaro · February 21, 2019, 7:47pm

What a strange question “Does it take more time to fly an Orca than it does a skiff?”.

Why do you need this?

Before I learned to fly my Orca, I did the same math just to check the optimal path to train into a good hi-sec solo casual miner. I found that Orca is more effective, universal and faster option to learn at mid-grade level than an Exhumer. But at high-grade level a specialized Orca pilot can be harder to mastery than a specialized Exhumer pilot. It can be problematic to calculate the required total time of learning, because it depends by many factors, sometimes temporar. For example, to learn 4M SP for Orca can take more time than to learn the same 4M SP for an Exhumer, because the Orca requires more different attribute schools: Spaceship (Perception/Willpower), Drones (Memory/Perception), Fleet Support (Charisma/Willpower). The Exhumers requires only two: Spaceship and Resource Processing (Memory/Intilligence). The attribute schools can be remapped once per a long time. So, this is why I’m counting only the reqired SP to effectively fly a specific ship to make things simpler. Moreover, your posted images for Requirements aren’t enough to effectively fly a ship.

Lets say that our basic skills in Navigation, Engineering, Armor and Shields are enought or perfect. How much addition SP we need to built near a perfect solo miner for both Orca and Exhumers respectively?

Then, based on my notepad, to fly the Orca at over 95% efficiency we need a specific set of skills into V, like: Leadership, Minig Director, Shield Command, Shield Command Specialist, Mining Drone Operation, Mining Drone Specialization. I can’t post the entire list, but the total SP for an effective Orca pilot will be around 8M. It’s not a big deal to built a specific list of skills and summ 'em. For solo mining we can dismiss the Mining Director skills to I, but we can’t do it for Shield Commands - it’s our defense versus gankers. The result will be 6.7M SP in this scenario.

To fly an Exhumer at over 95% efficiency we need both Mining Barge V and Exhumers V (which is debatable, but may it be) as the most enormous skills by default. It’s not the main thing here. Without Strip Miner II and Tech II Crystals, both Barges and Exhumers doing a bad job. We need 'em for solo mining. Here is the interesting thing begins! For hi-sec low-grade ores to learn into T2 Strip Miners and Crystals can be cheap and fast - Reprocessing IV (42255 SP) + Veldspar Processing V (256000 SP). So, in this situation an efficient Exhumer will cost between 4.1M and 4.5M SP. Things changes if to train into hi-grade ores like Bistot, Arconor, Mercoxit and Moon ores. In this case, the total amount of learning can be more than it’s required for a perfect Orca pilot. I didn’t done the math.

Therefore, to perfectly train into this

can cost much more than to train into this

18368131a39ecf9d1b78c4bab218774c2ada99d6_2_551x500

Solonius_Rex · February 21, 2019, 7:55pm

At an optimal, high grade level, id consider the Exhumers would also need to use Drones as well. Mining drones are what allow an exhumer like a Skiff to actually mine more(unboosted) than an orca, after all.

Were discussing this in terms of a medium-level solo mining ship, with no perfect masteries or perfect skills.

Also, in this scenario, we are talking about an Orca that is alone, mining alone. He has no need to boost any fleet, because he is alone.

So is it okay to take your answer as a “No, an exhumer takes longer to skill into than an orca”, given the above?

Rexxar_Santaro · February 21, 2019, 8:29pm

Mining Drones for Exhumers are just an optional thing (not a big mining yield difference between T1 and T2 m-drones for them), while for Orca is a must to have both trained into V. Almost all hi-sec solo miners which I have seen using aggresive combat drones for protection.

For a medium-level solo mining ship, we need all respective none-required skills into IV. Again, I tried to answer your question, - full training timeline for different ships. Partial scenarios can exist, but the entire skill set is the same for all skill levels individually, or we have an Exhumer IV (226275 SP) or we have an Industrial Command Ships IV (362040 SP), right? I don’t see any reason to just fly an Exhumer level I like to fly a Frigate level I, no point.

As I pointed in that post above, for a solo Orca miner we don’t need a Mining Director V - just Mining Director I. It will reduce the required SP to 6.7M. We need the Shield Command boosters for defense and they can improve our ship shield defense, like combat drones defending an Exhumer.

My answer is “It’s hard to say. It depends by situation. In some scenarios the Orca is harderd to learn in, while in other scenarios the Exhumers are harder to mastery”. A dedicated Exhumer pilot should train into all T2 Crystals, which can be much harder than to mastery the ship itself.

Solonius_Rex · February 22, 2019, 3:06am

It is.

github.com

Wilm0rien/EveOnlineMiningYield/blob/master/README.md#mining-ship-yields

# EveOnlineMiningYield
This is a followup to a [reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5bp0sm/mining_yield_with_the_november_update/) which shows the comparison of the different combinations of mining ships and boost.

Currently this page excludes Mercoxit and Gas yields.

# Residue Mechanic

> Residue probability is the likelihood that the mining laser will [..] destroy some of the yet untapped resources in the asteroid each cycle [..]

-- <cite>[Patch Notes 19.11 #1](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/patch-notes-version-19-11)</cite>

* Depending on the residue probability ore is removed from the asteroid additional to the mined ore amount.
* The waste is removed from the asteroid after mining happened, therefore this mechanic does not affect mining yield per cycle.

The residue probability affects:
1. the time needed to deplete the ore site 
2. the overall ore gathered after completing the mining operation.

## Residue Crystal Type Comparison

This file has been truncated. show original

Without drones, a skiff has a max, unboosted yield of 22.95 m3/s, while an Orca with T2 mining drones gets 24.75 m3/s.

The T2 drones for skiffs, give a whopping 7.5 m3/s.

That is huge, dont you agree?

Ab_Signum · February 22, 2019, 3:54am

another episode of: miners and their boring stories

Oliver_Delorean · February 22, 2019, 7:12am

733 days to fly spaceship in the game…
And what can u do after that… Target a rock and activate a laser, another timer!
So u can wait a timer to activate another timer.
I’m telling! When will we rename the game to ”Timers Online”

Dracvlad · February 22, 2019, 8:14am

To clarify, when I said this I was not doing this to solo mine in an Orca I am mining with a character in a Skiff and another in an Orca, I am doing ice and ore mining. So boosting skills are needed, so I guess that is what the difference is @Solonius_Rex in your replies, but I never said solo .

Also you did just show the training to sit in the ships which is why I suggested that you were being disingenuous, also on the back of the 20% comment, you wanted to win the debate, while I was trying to point out that it was based on what my experience was, I knew that paper warriors pointing out pure numbers and min/max could be perceived differently. That being said you are obviously someone who goes into the detail and I respect that. o7.

I am not min/maxing so I was not doing T2 crystals and was going to level IV’s on the top end skills. It was also to get the tank and drones up to speed too, which means medium combat drones for the Orca. The thing is that I am using two characters with that skill set and I am training two alts to do that instead so I can use those original characters in NPC null. These alts will eventually be maximised and will have implants and T2 crystals, so I will see then. But it was to get them to the same level as my existing.

I think @Rexxar_Santaro nailed it above. It depends.

I was interested to see people suggesting that the Orca should have a nerf on yield, but I found that my Orca which is better set up with skills and fit (Augmented drones when the system was empty, T2 when not) than my Skiff. The Orca was outperformed by the Skiff easily and it only had T1 strip miners and a single T2 mining upgrade and using T2 mining drones. I was noting the difference over a number of months. Part of it was the boosting, but from what I saw even unboosted it would still mine slightly more.

I used the comment real experience, in that I was going through the belts and was taking care to select what I needed to mine to get to zero on the roid as quick as possible and changing drones against possible gankers. I do not have the drones trained into V on the Orca. I was pretty clear on the fact that the forum warriors were not taking into account any impact from drone travel time.

I don’t want to go back over this as it was discussed in another thread which got closed due to excessive, obsessive and sad personal attack trolling. I mentioned it only to define the context of that discussion.

Anyway interesting exchange.

You are quoting figures here close to what I am at and why I thought the Orca could have a slight buff.

PS The Orca character should also train the overall drone skills to a high level which adds up.