Does anyone notice nobody talks and local anymore

Communications Center General Discussion
84

I would like to point out that all he did was linking a certain site, yet you start throwing a tantrum and calling him toxic. Isn’t that a bit excessive?

I’ve linked EVE-related sites before, possibly even the minerbumping site, since it’s common knowledge and can give good information about high sec ganking for people who are new to the game. That doesn’t mean I’m affiliated with such a site. I don’t know Daichi Yamato, but from what he has said in this thread, he doesn’t seem to be affiliated with them either, he merely linked a site.

I would suggest you to read back calmly what Daichi and you both said, and look for the thing that caused you to get angry at him and caused you to call him toxic.

From my perspective it looked like this happened:

Daichi links minerbumping > Herzog assumes Daichi is part of CODE > Herzog assumes Daichi is toxic because he is part of CODE > Herzog accuses Daichi of being toxic

Lots of unnecessary anger as a result of a few (completely wrong?) assumptions.

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85

Thanks bud!

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86

It’s annoying how all interesting discussions turn to the “personal aggression is an adequate argument” fallacy.

It’s almost like whatever the subject is, there are people who have a personal interest in preventing discussion on this topic.

For me “toxic” people are the ones who say they have a shared interest but in effect are trying to take the benefit from you. Most of your CODE. hypocritical friends go into that group : they invade a discussion space to prevent discussion, they make logical fallacies in order to insult people who don’t agree with them (going as far as claiming CCP said the opposite of what they said).
They never agreed on being wrong, even after FACTS showed they had been. They are actively and on purpose pushing people out of the forum because “That’s best for the game if you GO AWAY”.
They are the definition of what “toxic behavior” is.

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87

I see no monopoly on passionate, and sometimes counter-productive/toxic behaviour on any side of the debates that routinely pop-up on these forums. People have different opinions. People accept different collections of facts. People have different experiences. I’ll agree that some posters on these forums, and elsewhere, sometimes engage with the discourse as if it were a bloodsport, seeking victory, or at least are so strongly motivated by their convictions they sometimes fail to consider other perspectives.

But arguing passionately your differing view isn’t toxic. Even if they make some logical fallacies or have different premises, experiences, or perspectives than you. That is human discourse and can be messy and combative and heated. And when things here do drift into toxicity, trolling or other bad behaviour such that the moderates need to step in, it is players on all sides the debates that engage in such deplorable actions from my experience.

Regardless, it also isn’t especially relevant of what goes on in game that would explain people not talking in local that is the topic of this thread. Do people really think the arguing over game design or mechanics that goes on here is the cause of the increasing silence of local chat? I mean, I can count on one hand the number of times I remember discussions like we see here break out in local. In specialized channels perhaps, but not local.

Ultimately, I find it hard to think political? or maybe ideological Eve debates have dampened local chat since they have be raging on the forums since 2003. Nor do I think some third-party websites showcasing player interactions and player-generated stories is important at all. There have been some significant changes in player demographics in the last 5-6 years that is a much more simple explanation for the changes in local chat activity noted in the OP.

88

Affirming obvious nonsense like “correlation is causation” is not arguing. This is a logical fallacy that is used to scam people IRL. That is used in politics to lie to people.
The other logical fallacy they use is that just because they don’t know, then it MUST be a given explanation without any further information (argument ad ignorance). It’s also used in politics to propose false answers to ambiguous issues.

Those two ways to present things make no room for arguing, no room for debate. They only show a voluntary will to lie to people and propagate false information for a vested interest. I wished the forum had a way to block people for several month so as not to lose time reading their lies.

In the post about bumping in which someone said “ccp acknowledged the issue”, they kept claiming CCP had never talked about the 3min warp timer, and when someone presents a CCP fanfest (IIRC) video with it, then no excuse, just more “it’s not official CCP” crap.

They kept repeating that “CCP said more PVP means better retention” even though I kept repeating them that this was completely wrong. When I finally got a video from CCP that exactly says what I had been saying, then nothing, no apologize for their insults and their spreading of crap.

There is no discussion here. They are not here to get other opinions ; they are here to look down and insult people with a different opinion.

Now I can tell you the same thing from local : it’s used so much for propaganda/scam/trashtalking I just always hide it. I have a lots of people blocked (no CODE. member though) but I just can’t stand the requirement to filter out all the trash. So if I could have only the intel part of local, without the communication, I would never show the communication part (the communcaition part is hidden behind overview)

It’s not a “social” game when you need to hide the discussion with people. It’s a good game, with bad tasting social interactions. I don’t mean all but the most those provided in local chat. I agree that sometimes I use local, typically when I steal something from someone in HS or kill someone (in a way that does not trigger concord). But in the end it’s always the same russian insults, or the same CODE. nonsense. (I actually met nice people with local but it’s been a while so now I only can see trashtalk)

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89

That’s … so bad, really, i hope you’re not actually serious. Poe’s Law is always in effect and gullible idiots might actually believe this.

I have to say, how is it not toxic to make ■■■■■■■■ up about things that only happened that way because you want to believe they happened that way, despite them not making any sense?

The reason why people stopped talking in local definitely isn’t because of those people talking in local. That doesn’t even make sense! New players especially, later in the stage of “silent local”, would have no ■■■■■■■ idea about why it’s silent in the first place or why it would supposedly be better to stay silent!

All they get to see is silent local, or they’re not paying attention at all!

Pedro and me extensively experimented in modern local and I have multiple years of experience with being active in local! @Pix_Severus and @Black_Pedro can confirm that I talk a ■■■■■■■ LOT and it’s super effective!

The situation nowadays is a far cry from what it was and it has NOTHING to do with some few griefers the assholes here want to exaggerate into an actual problem.

This is just the typical toxic carebear nonsense who just found a convinient new attack vector they can pretend exists. Fact is that in 2012 there were far more people active, also paying attention to local, and interacting with others.

Anyone claiming that the activity itself is what caused the activity to cease has no actual wider social experience using local in highsec, or likely none at all. Anyone claiming that it’s just griefers everywhere is flat out lieing!

Case in point: The social hub that once was deltole! The ones who actually caused it to cease to exist where farmers who griefed the people who were social by not sharing any of the NPCs and loot, like people in deltole did for many YEARS before! I grew up there, it was amazing and I knew almost everyone back then, because we all talked!

The reason why local activity died a slow death, over many months, was CCP’s changes of game mechanics over time.

It was changes CCP made that caused changes in the people’s behaviour. There is no room to argue here, some actually toxic people just want to make some minority of people look bad so they make a blanket statement confirming their actually toxic views.

They’re the assholes. They’re the ones who wouldn’t talk in local.
They’re the ones who make people attack them, because they’re assholes.

Of course the world’s going to be full of griefers,
when you’re an asshole constantly asking for it with your shitty behaviour!

Sheesh!

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90

Wow, what a train-wreck of a thread!

Now that I’m back in high sec for the foreseeable future, I’ll be sure to engage in general chitchat when I can. I do find some of the comments about the presence of all the griefers, scary neutrals, and general unpleasant people in high to be somewhat amusing. Surely it can’t have changed that much in a couple of years?
I think that about all I ever said in local when I was in null, was something like “lol, missed” when a hostile tried to catch me at a customs office. I’ve already said more in local since returning.

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91

Your choice of words reveals your intent. The usual “control of the language” thing that I notice enough that I don’t get fooled by the news any more.

He linked Code, then when called out on it, hides behind “I’m not a ganker!”. What if I linked some very questionable websites?

Meanwhile you carefully miss his other comments. Yes, you too are toxic, trying to pretend you are not. I know that game.

92

Somebody tell me if this is toxic or not, in spite of the claims for toxicity … 2019.04.12 02:43:03 ] Kantar Vilorious > toilet (permit) paper?
[ 2019.04.12 02:45:03 ] Australian Excellence > ag sure are ■■■■ and failing still
[ 2019.04.12 02:45:16 ] Australian Excellence > why havent they just ended theimselves yet xfDXDFXDXDxdxD
[ 2019.04.12 02:45:19 ] Australian Excellence > biggest losers
**[ 2019.04.12 02:45:29 ] Australian Excellence > never forget that ex antiganker who ended it all**
[ 2019.04.12 02:45:51 ] Australian Excellence > #toxic players, #betalosers
[ 2019.04.12 02:46:31 ] JACKED OG > Australian Excellence we like to be toxic to the community in .5 sec
[ 2019.04.12 02:47:07 ] Kantar Vilorious > toxic miner bump?
[ 2019.04.12 02:47:21 ] Hey Youguyz > oh boy
[ 2019.04.12 02:47:23 ] Australian Excellence > how your mums basement going kid? must be sad xdXZDXDXDXD
[ 2019.04.12 02:47:37 ] Nokachi Dochrir > Teatsy Fly o7
[ 2019.04.12 02:47:50 ] Jean Grima > another onebites the dust
[ 2019.04.12 02:47:57 ] Australian Excellence > spends 50 hours a week failing nonostop

Gloating on a suicide is not toxic. No no no.

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93

This is not toxic,this is just being an asshole. Just block him or better don’t show local chat.

94

Can confirm. Sol knows how to get local buzzing, and it’s a glorious sight when it happens.

I agree. I believe a lot of players use “griefers” as an excuse for their own apathy when it comes to forming relationships, which is the end-goal of talking with people you don’t know in local.

95

Pedro

It’s not the topics like “arguing over game design” that make these forums (especially this one) into an advertisement for playing EVE either solo or not at all. And hence indirectly suggests local chat is not worth considering.

It’s the routine use of negative techniques to disrupt and derail the discussions. It’s not all that many posters either, but they are prolific and relentlessly destructive. They have two hallmarks:

  • Personal attacks as their default form of communication
  • Repeated use of well-known and obvious fallacies to “re-purpose the truth” to suit themselves

A casual visitor would certainly conclude that talking to EVE players is a waste of effort, because so many posts in here seem designed to prove the game is played by the kind of people you’d never talk to twice IRL.

A more experienced gamer would note that the toxic content comes from relatively few posters, but that hardly anyone tries to help the other small minority: those who want a interesting or useful discussions about EVE.
This is less unequivocal evidence, but “Lex parsimoniae” suggest we start with:

  • CCP doesn’t mind people who might as well be deliberate saboteurs (are are the real thing - the distinction doesn’t matter in practice)
  • Other players accept this behavior as “EVE normal”, which reinforces any reservations about talking to other EVE players

There’'s nothing about EVE that encourages the kind of social interaction many people play MMOs for. And there’s a lot that suggests the nice people are a small minority.

It’s possible there are plenty of nice people in EVE. They might just be hidden by the others (who are definitely out there). But if they exist in reasonable numbers, the effort required to find them is astronomically higher than any other multiplayer game I’ve played, or seen friends play.

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96

We can discuss how people engage with these forums, but that isn’t the topic raised by the OP:

Is that somehow related to what goes on in same age-old forum arguments? I don’t see how. Like the OP, I remember a highsec that was full of chat in local, most of it banal maybe, and you were more likely than not to get some sort of reply if you tried to engage someone with a friendly wave. Sure, sometimes language was an issue, or someone had gone AFK, but generally people would talk.

Even here on the forums, the bulk of the talk that goes on here is civil and about dry topics like game mechanics or explanations. I really don’t see these bad actors everywhere making local chat or the forums unpleasant or unusable. When they do appear, it is rare and notable, and usually someone from CCP steps in once it gets to their attention. I do see a non-negligible amount of ill-informed, self-interested or redundant ideas thrown about and the odd person out to score rhetorical points or win a debate rather than honestly discuss, but that is common to all public forums like this.

But these forums have been here since 2003. Eve has suffered the presence of jerks since 2003. None of this explains why local in highsec is noticeably quieter than in the past. I don’t buy the lack-of-trust argument since CCP has done nothing but patch out forms of interesting interaction to make it easier to trust others. They re-did CrimeWatch and added a safety setting to prevent people from playing suspect flag games and trick you into going suspect. They deleted highsec AWOXing, or at least allowed you to opt-out of that risk someone would break the bond of corporate trust and shoot you. They just made a big safe space for you to join with others in a wardec-immune corp allowing you to say whatever you want in local without fear of reprisals to your group, well, via the war mechanic. There has never been less risk for talking in local, or joining a corporation, yet it seems people talk less than ever.

I really do think the OP is just noticing the change in demographics: there are less players and a different sort of player left in highsec. That, and competition from other communication channels have weakened the role of local chat as an interaction tool. I really don’t think it is some wide-spread paranoia of the “other” screwing you over that has suddenly taken hold, this many years into the lifespan of this game.

There are plenty of nice people in Eve who want to help you. There are plenty of friendly people who want to chat with you. And there are plenty of groups clamouring for any newbro with a pulse to join them. I think there are definitely issues around this vulnerable time getting newer players integrated into the game and the group that suits them (including just a social circle if they want to play mostly solo), but of all those issues, bad actors speaking in local chat (or these forums) is way, way down the list of issues that need to be addressed.

If it was me, I’d start by giving them a reason to interact instead of encouraging them to silently mine in their effectively-invulnerable tanked mining ships, or farm their missions in the most efficient way which is solo. Maybe something like an Invasion from the outside? :wink:

97

Indeed. But the post I responded to was part of a chain which started here, or was consistent with it:

I would have opened with a specific quote from your post that explicitly addresses that sub-topic, but I didn’t realize I had to.

I’ll adjust the style of any future responses appropriately.

98

Australian Excellence = Loyalannon, or at least I think so. He has thrown that event at me at least six times, possibly more. But as I did not know the guy he is referring to it has no emotional effect on me, apart from making me feel what a complete asshole Australian Excellence is.

But the minerbumping site is full of such rubbish, another CODE player after a failed gank, linked to a comment by Loyalannon on Minerbumping in local where Loyalannon was gloating over this murder / suicide.

I mean it is not just a suicide, it was a murder / suicide and the player and his wife were AG and the wife lost her son and husband. This is the definition of toxic imo.

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99

One of the more interesting aspects of this topic is how many people remember a different EVE long ago, where talking in local chat was a way to get help and establish social contacts.

The environment they’re talking about is very similar to the “rookie experience” in every growing MMO, but nothing like EVE today.

I wonder if the people who preach here for a “sink or swim” approach ever went through the same harsh process as a typical rookie does today. I’m beginning to doubt it.

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100

Most of us went through a far harsher rookie experience, being thrown in to sink or swim with no introduction to the game at all, or any of the niceties that rookies have now, like a tutorial, a decent SP start, free stuff from CCP etc etc.

What you’re seeing is a common trope in action.

When I was your age/ when I were a lad/ in my day.

TL;DR I had to walk fifteen miles to school in the snow! Barefoot! Uphill! Both ways !, So should you.

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101

I did my first trial about ten years ago, with (I think) the first NPE, so I can’t compare with very early EVE.

IMO the first one was as good as the second one (which I believe has been replaced or upgraded lately).

More importantly, IMO unboosted game setup takes just as long now as it did back then.

EVE isn’t hard as such, but it’s complicatred: a player requires a lot of knowledge to do simple things. The effect is a ridiculously high “startup threshold”, most of which is left out of the NPE . For example you don’t learn what does and doesn’t remove CONCORD’s “revenge service”, which is far too big, far too complicated, and absolutely necessary to make a “fight or flight” decision.

Except of course, the learning process is potentially fun if you make social contacts early, and you get informal help from other players.

Without the “trust problem” EVE would be a much better game.

BTW “trust problem”, doesn’t imply fear of PvP combat or fear of ganking. It’s one of the recurring responses to the OP’s question: paraphrasing: "why talk to someone in local when that odds are overwhelming that (a) they can’t be trusted,even to provide accurate information, and (b) they will be rude and negative.

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102

Please tell me what you think my intent is that you can read through my choice of words, because I’m not aware of any intent other than that of honestly telling you that you’re making a lot of wild assumptions.

Also thanks, you’re the first one to ever call me toxic. What is it that made you call me toxic, am I special or are you calling everyone toxic? From what I read in this thread, it might be the latter…

103

I think they went through a harsher process, as EVE seems to have become easier to get into than a long time ago. Or so I’ve heard, I only experienced the tutorials since two years ago. EVE is harsh to get into, but there are many many sources in and outside the game for players to get the info they need.

Sink or swim isn’t bad, but I think it’s good that there is a lot of help for new players these days, because not every potential new player will stay if their first experiences are ‘feeling completely lost’, because these days it’s much easier to just quit the game and grab something else to play.

That’s why I’m glad we have lively chat channels in this game. Even though help may not be found in local, new players all are able to ask stuff in the rookie help chat. That channel has been a fantastic source of info for me when I joined.